I’m reading for quite some time a Jewish website which explains thoroughfully the basic beliefs in Judaism.
The website was quite an interesting one to read just to get a bit closer look to Jewish religion and rituals attached to it.
You might want to take a look at the website JewFaq.org
From this website I’ve extracted the Jewish definition for Messiah or as we know it also in Christianity the title Christ which our saviour and Lord Jesus Christ is wearing.
It was very interesting fact to know that the Jewish definition to the Christ the jewish people expect is identical to our Christian definition of the AntiChrist
Below is definition of the “Messiah” or “Mashiach” as they call their still expected saviour to come:
“Anglicization of the Hebrew, “mashiach” (anointed). A man who will be chosen by G-d to put an end to all evil in the world, rebuild the Temple, bring the exiles back to Israel and usher in the world to come. It is better to use the Hebrew term “mashiach” when speaking of the Jewish messiah, because the Jewish concept is very different from the Christian one.”
Moreover I found it interesting to show you here few more things that the Jewish belief about their eventual Messiah, the info is again extracted from jewfaq.org;
* The idea of mashiach (messiah) is an ancient one in Judaism
* The Jewish idea of mashiach is a great human leader like King David, not a savior
And now the most funny one:
* Jews do not believe in Jesus because he did not accomplish these tasks
The belief of the coming Jewish Christ and therefore in reality the Anti-Christ is a basic belief of the Jewish faith and is one of the 13 Principles of Jewish Faith
It’s absolutely striking for me and I guess for each Christian out there that the Jewish people plainly tell that they’re looking forward for t
he coming of the Anti-Christ, that we tremble at and are constantly warned about in our Orthodox Christian Churches.
Of course getting to know Jewish tradition and faith is a good thing especially in order to complain and see how much similar Orthodox Judaism is in many aspects to Orthodox Christianity.
For instance they also hold their holy book the Torah and walk with it through their Synagogue, they kiss the Torah. They also have a sort of o
ur Holy Liturgy, they have an early cycle of book readings assigned Jews read in the synagogue throughout the year.
However there I can find so many differences. For instance in some cases Orthodox Judaism allows abortion, whether our Orthodox Christian Churc
h strictly prohibits it as one of the biggest sins one can commit.
Another similarity between Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity was the daily (morning and evening prayers), prayers before eating, thank
sful prayers after eating etc.
It’s apparent from that short comparison that the Orthodox Church that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has established has continued the jewish ancient traditions and passed it over to us the Orthodox Christians.
In so many things I’ve red on that Jewish website I’ve found clearly the references to the Holy Trinity – The Father, The Son and the Ho
ly Spirit to whom glory to be now and for ever and ever! Amen!.
It’s so strange that Jewish people cannot see their fallacy in non-believing in the Son of God and the rejection of the tri-unite nature of God
.
One clear very ancient symbol that testifies about the Tre Holy Trinity is the Jewish Hamesh Hand
Here is the picture of the Hamesh Hand:
The hand as you can see in the picture presents a hand with three primary fingers each one of each holds three identical rings and the all seeing eye that, we also have as a Christian symbol within a pyramid (symbolizing the the tri-unite nature of God).
The rabbin’s dressing as shown in some pictures I’ve checked on jewfaq is also quite similar to our Orthodox Priest’s dressing.
Another interesting moment from me from exploring the Jewish culture was the 613 (Mitzvot) commandments which one should follow and which are actually impossible not to break throughout a life time.
As an Orthodox Christians we believe that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has fulfilled and kept all the 613 Jewish commandment in order to be able to become a sinless sacrifice for our sins.
Some things concerning the daily speaking that I found as a Jewish beliefs I liked a lot and I should say some chunks of things about what is allowed to talk and what is prohibited is really something that seems right.
However we don’t have it in a such strict and clearly divided way in the Orthodox Church. Even though we know that we’re told in the New Testament that we who believe in Christ as a saviour should speak only good and bad word shouldn’t get out of our mouths.
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Tags: brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity, Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ)
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This article on the idea of the Jewish people on the Messiah is an eye opener. What’s important for me is that Jesus did save us and we should thank Him.
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I’m an Orthodox Christian who was Jewish, but I am having trouble because the lack of basic knowledge about Judaism and the Torah amongst even Orthodox Christians is astounding.
What do you mean that Jesus kept all 613 commandments? This is impossible, unless Jesus was both a woman, a man, and a Kohen. How did Jesus keep the commandments that pertain only to women? Was Jesus a Kohen? If not, he could not have kept the commandments specific to a priest.
Finally, what on earth are you talking about when you list these things as qualifications for the anti christ?
” A man who will be chosen by G-d to put an end to all evil in the world,
(Jesus destroyed sin)
rebuild the Temple,
(Jesus raised the temple of His body)
bring the exiles back to Israel
(Jesus gathered in those of Israel who were dispersed – even the high priest was given the grace to utter this prophecy in the gospels)
and usher in the world to come.
(Jesus says that the Kingdom of God is in your midst – the Orthodox Christian experience from the beginning has been living in the world and yet participating in the Life of the world to come. So Jesus did usher in the world to come)
All these things considered it looks more as though their conception of the messiah is the same as ours, but their interpretation of the ingathering of Israel is very physically related to the land of Israel.
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Christ is Risen Alex,
Jesus kept the old Torah law and he break nothing which was related to him as a God-Man. Of he was not bound under the law of the rules concerning woman, as he is God-Man.
However I believe the Holy Theotokos has kept the woman part of the Torah old testamental law completely as we believe she is an immaculate Virgin in the Orthodox Christian.
I’m happy to hear you have turned to our Lord and Saviour Jesus. You’re completely right that Jewish has wrongly interpreted the prophecies for Christ coming in the world.
Please read again the quote:
“A man who will be chosen by G-d to put an end to all evil in the world,”
Note “A Man”, so it’s clear Jewish people nowdays await “A man” and not a God-Man as our saviour is, “Chosen By God” which means Christ’s Godly nature is rejected, and even further “to put an end to all evil in the world”, note the word “in the world”.
You should definitely remember in the Gospels that our Lord said his Kingdom is not of this world, he even said for us Christians that we will see him and the world would not see him anymore. It’s clear that the kingdom of heaven is not the kingdom of this world. Unfortunately apparently today’s jewish torah believing people still keep this wrong interpretations of the scriptures and therefore in a sense they expect the coming of the Anti-Christ.
Best,
View CommentView CommentGeorgi
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By the way I’m really happy that you have found Christ and Orthodox Christianity.
I feel sad that many Jewish are still awaiting for the Earthly meassiah which will enthrone himself and make the world a better place.
It’s truly a miracle you have turned to Christ!
Best,
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I in no way, shape, or form mean to be offensive but I think that Christians need to study the history of their religion a little bit better. I have studied many different religions and to be perfectly honest the jesus christ story is not the story of a literal man just to start things off. The gospels of christ are really the story of the sun’s journey through the zodiac throughout the year. It’s obviously paganism in disguise. The cross of christ is also a sun symbol dividing the four seasons of the year. The birthdate of christ is december 25th which is also the rebirth of the sun in the sky because the days start getting longer again. Jesus Christ is the sun personified. It just takes a little bit of study guys.
Also Christian theology is all messed up. The hebrew scriptures and the new testament as you call it absolutely do not go together. The hebrew scriptures over time have been changed to look like the fulfillment of Judaism but in reality nothing could be farther from the truth. The hebrew scriptures are either misquoted or blatantly mistranslated to make this jesus sun god character look like the messiah. For example…
Matthew 2:15 says…”Out Of Egypt I called My Son.” At first glance this might look like a fulfillment of some kind. However if you actually read all of Hosea 11:1 you will find that this is talking about Israel.
Hosea 11:1 says…”When Israel was a child I loved him; and out of Egypt I called my son.”
This passage is not a prophecy at all. So if it isn’t a prophecy in the first place then how can it be fulfilled in the future lol?
The virgin birth is another one. The hebrew word translated as virgin is the word alma which actually means young women. Isaiah 7:14 is an obvious mistranslation. The hebrew word for virgin is actually bethulah. So obviously this verse has been mistranslated to support the idea of a virgin birth which is a pagan concept.
The trinity is also false. The Tanakh says that god is one. It never ever says he is three. This is a pagan concept. The jewish messiah is not a demigod which brings me to my next point.
You think that the coming jewish messiah is the antichrist? Some say that this antichrist is satan in the flesh. He will have magical powers and totally deceive the world. Wrong again! The jewish people believe that their messiah will be totally human. Magic is also forbidden in the torah. You act like we don’t know our own laws or something lol.
I don’t have anything against you christian people but once you take the paganism out of christianity you have nothing left lol.
The reason the jews and the christians do not worship the same messiah is because our messiah is not a pagan messiah. Our messiah will uphold the torah and teach it. Christianity teaches that the torah is dead! You christians say that the antichrist is the man of lawlessness right? Well christianity appears to be the religion of lawlessness despite your very own messiah telling you to keep the mizvot (commandments). You worship on sunday instead of the sabbath day. You worship on pagan holidays instead of the feasts of the creator. I just refuse to believe in a church that has jumped headlong into anti torah teachings and lawlessness. Let me slow down here for a second…
Before you attempt to label judaism as evil I think you need to look at your own religion and the mass murders it has committed in the middle ages. Millions of people murdered in the name of your messiah. I guess thats what happens when you don’t obey torah laws.
I’m sorry to have to rain on your parade but I think you need to be sceptical of your own religion before you judge another.
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Hi Wes,
From all you said, I can find out that you know not that much of Christianity and Christian history.
Christianity is the only religion next to Judaism, that lays on mostly proovable historical facts (check ancient history books).
I don’t say Judaism is evil, I say that Judaism’s interpretation of their own writtings is in a way which is opposite to Christianity. And what Judaism defines as Christ, coincides interestingly with the person prophecised to come described as the Anti-Christ.
Concerning the mass-murders you mentioned. I assume you refer to Inquisition? If you take the time to read some Church history you will realise the Orthodox Church has never been involved at any age after Christ in mass-murders that you talk about.
Right on the contrary the Crusaders has killed many of us the Orthodox Christians and tried to convert us to their false inverted Roman Catholic doctrines.
I wonder how do you define, our Lord Jesus Christ as pagan? Obviously even in your jewish history books, it’s written that he was on earth, he did miracles that nobody before him and after him has ever did. And he told you how you should interpret your Torah.
Yes I know your messiah will be totally human, that’s difference between your messiah and our Messiah. Our Messiah is not totally human but he is the only begotten Son of God (The same God you heavily read about in the Torah).
To continue on about your interpretation of prophecy, let me explain how we understand it.
Matthew 2:15 says…â€Out Of Egypt I called My Son.†At first glance this might look like a fulfillment of some kind. However if you actually read all of Hosea 11:1 you will find that this is talking about Israel.
Israel is a name which God himself gave to you the Jews in the old testament, it’s the name of Jacob. From the eartly lineage of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Mother of God descended out of Jacob’s family. This is also described very precisely by the evangelists in the New Testament. The prophecy obviously refers to Israel’s son and the son of Israel (from the earthly nature is Christ), moreover it does completely fill in the times after Christ’s birth in Bethleem, when an Angel went and instructed Virgin Mary to depart with her son and our Lord to Egypt.
You’re also in a high confusion, concerning the origin of the word “Virgin”. If you dig deep into the etymology of the word as their was a lot of research into the Torah you will find out that you’re wrong about the interpretation suggested.
Now I quote some more from you: “The Tanakh” says that god is one. Yes that is perfectly correct we don’t believe in three Gods no we believe in ONE GOD who has three hiposhtases (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit)! We firmly confess that God is one in a trinity that is undividable. We don’t get praise to three Gods but we give thanks to the One God!
Following on, The birthday of Christ is not on 25 of December as you wrote above. Most of he Orthodox Christian Churches does celebrate the birthday of Christ on 7th of January.
Some of the local Orthodox Churches does moved it on 24th of December (by the way it’s 24th and not 25th) to celebrate Christ’s birth, as there is a wide belief in Roman Catholic Christian world that the date 24th is closest to the exact date in which Christ was born, this is highly debatable and as I said most of the Orthodox Churches does not accept this dating as it’s the so called modern dating which does not rely on ancient Church tradition but mostly on scientifical and historical facts that Roman Catholics comes with.
Having said that I proceed further with your claims about the Christian cross origin. We do venerate the Cross so highly because simply Christ was executed on a cross at the time of our Saviour was on earth crucifying accused criminals was a common thing in the Roman empire, this fact is also clearly seen from history (read about it in old history books).
Christian theology andis far from messed up, try to learn a bit more about it and you will see it yourself.
I wish you goodluck in your searches.
With Regards,
View CommentView CommentGeorgi
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If you are looking for Christians that believe as the Jews do, truly in One God, the I am, then you are looking for Oneness Pentecostals. They attempt to correct the ecclesiastical teaching, non-biblical teaching, of the man-made doctrine of the Trinity. One cannot speak for all Oneness Pentecostals but in short Jesus was God Jehovah yet fully Man (grew tired, spoke as a man when crying our My God My God why hast though forsaken me, spoke as a man when he referred to ‘the Father “). He spoke as God (spoke as the one God manifest in the flesh, that fullness of God that dwelt in the man Christ Jesus) when he said he was “I am,” gave commandments and the like. Jesus is never referred to as God the Son in the bible. The man Christ Jesus “being put to death in the flesh” paved the way for salvation by the sinless blood spilt by the death of this man that the God (Jehovah)/Spirit in him raised up (raised the temple in 3 days). Belief that Jesus was both God and man, but in no fashion a separate God from Jehovah (the “I amâ€) in any way, is a core of their beliefs.
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Hi we believe different in Orthodox Church, we believe Jesus Christ is God’s son and not Jahovah himself but one in hipostasis with God the Father The Son and The Holy Spirit. We don’t believe what you say, because we believe Jesus was not only God in the Flesh but man too so Godman in the flesh who came to save us through his sacrifice on the Golgotha Cross.
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Hi Giorgi,
Just a slight correction. All Orthodox celebrate the Feast of the Messiah’s Nativity on December 25, it is just that some celebrate it on Dec. 25 according to the Julian calendar, while others celebrate it on Dec. 25 according to the Gregorian calendar. So, for clarities sake, let it be known that no one really celebrates it on Jan. 4.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the date was chosen not because it is closer to when Jesus was actually born.. There were other factors going in to play. The Church did not celebrate the Nativity on Dec. 25 until the time of St. Constantine the Great. Prior to that, the Nativity and Theophany were celebrated as one holiday.
As for Jesus being the Sun in ‘disguise’, the opposite is true. Jesus has taught those who engaged in Sun worship to cast off their idolatry and worship the God of Israel. This is the troparion from the Feast of the Nativity:
“Thy nativity O Christ our God, shined the light of knowledge upon the world. Whereby they that worshipped the stars were instructed by a star to worship Thee, the Sun of Righteousness and to know Thee the Dayspring from on high. O Lord, glory be to Thee.”
Wes, yes, of course it refers to Israel. We know that, as did the writers of the New Testament. That reading of the text is very in keeping with the teaching of the Church.
Orthodox Christianity teaches that God created all things through His Word and vivifies the creation through His spirit. Jewish theology looks very similar here. Let’s take the logical steps: 1) There was never a time when God was without His Word. The universe was created through God’s Word (the Midrash Rabbah calls the Torah, before creation, the ‘nursling’ of God and the blueprint of creation). This means that the Torah is uncreated. However, there is only one which is uncreated – God. Therefore, in Jewish theology, the Torah is God by nature. I have had an Orthodox Jewish rabbi confirm this.
I would encourage you to take a deeper look into Orthodox Christian teaching and history.
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Hi Jacob,
You’re not correct that all Orthodox Churches celebrate on 4th of January and (It’s actually 6th against 7th of January).
For example check for the Russian Orthodox Church they celebrate on 7th of January. Also many of the Orthodox Monasteries celebrate on 7th. The Russian Orthodox Church abroad also has it’s Nativity feast on 7th of January. Also Serbian Church celebrates it on 6th to 7th of January.
Note that here the Russian Church is one of the biggest national Church in the realm of the Orthodox Church.
It’s more correct that the feast of nativity is being celebrated on 7th of January as the Orthodox tradition puts.
You’re right Orthodox Christianity teaches that God created everything with his Word, it also teaches that Jesus Christ is the Lord of God (begotten before all ages) as we state in the creed of faith on every Holy Liturgy.
You’re absolutely right about the Jewish theology, I’m aware that according to Jewish faith the Torah itself (some of the old testamential books) are God himself, this kind of belief is widely spread also among protestant Christians as protestanism does adopt many of the beliefs of Jews. In Orthodox Christianity I’m not aware that we belief that the Holy Scriptures are uncreated. The uncreated Torah also corresponds well with Muslims belief that the Qu’ran is uncreated, most probably this idea came again from Judaism.
Concerning Christ’s preach to venerate God instead of any sun or any other kind of idols, it’s quite clear not only from the troparion but also in a numerous of places in the Gospels, so that’s absolutely correct.
I would say it’s Wes’s misinformation that makes him make this so-popular nowdays fantastic (superstitios) stories about origins of Christianity.
Wish you best and hope to see you around.
Best,
Georgi
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I still cannot tell you how truly different both religions are. Judaism and Christianity do not mix together in any fashion. Messianic Judaism i would say is a step up from most of the christian world because they hold some jewish tradition but the fact remains that your so called messiah, while being a devoted jew, is the leader of a religion that does not even recognize the religion practiced by the jewish people.
If Jesus was a jew and truly was upholding the law then why would the writings of people like say paul for example be so anti torah? The doctrine of paul contradicts what your messiah taught. Grace instead of laws for example. Even your messiah said to keep the commandments to attain eternal life. How can a church that follows “the messiah” be in all actuality absolutely nothing like him or the religion he was a part of? If jesus or in his hebrew name yeshua is the messiah of the jewish people..why isn’t christianity more jewish lol?
What I am trying so hard to explain to you is that christianity has borrowed ideas from different pagan religions. I probably could believe in yeshua if he/his followers still taught torah and fulfilled the messianic prophecies but the new covenant is anything but the torah and the messianic prophecies have not been fulfilled.
Instead of resting on the 7th day (saturday) the entire christian world worships on sunday. Sunday is called SUNDAY for a reason. Jesus Christ truly is the invention of rome. Look at other religions of rome like the worship of Mithra for example who is also a sun god who existed before jesus (600 B.C) but has a lot in common with him. Same birthdate on december 25th, performed miracles, had 12 disciples, and was also thought to be the savior of mankind.
Horus and Jesus also have a lot in common. The Egyptian Horus was born of a virgin, had a foster father named seb (like joseph), birth accompanied by three solar deities, baptized at the age of 30 by anup the baptizer, resists temptation by sut (satan), and was raised from the grave by his father Osiris after three days.
So how can christianity claim to be original in any sense when the same story of a god man savior was told by other civilizations prior to the time christianity says that jesus walked the earth. It just doesn’t make sense to call your messiah original or your religion new when it has been practiced throughout the ages under different names/peoples.
I still hold to the fact that judaism is still the only monotheistic religion in the entire world today. Again i don’t say it out of hate for other religions. I don’t say it because there is some sin i don’t want to give up to follow your messiah either. I say it because factually it doesn’t make any sense to believe in jesus as messiah especially if you know the history of sun worship and the similarities it has with your messiah.
I could write an entire page about the false idea of the immortal soul and a pagan hellfire as well. What kind of loving god throws someone into fiery torment for eternity for breaking one little rule? The entire idea of a hellfire is not found in the hebrew scriptures. It isn’t found until the new testament which i do not believe is inspired by YHVH. The immortal soul doctrine is so rooted in pagan religions it’s not even funny. The creator hates human sacrifice and would not even if he could throw anyone into a hell for all of eternity. Hades is also not a place but a pagan god of the underworld. ALSO let me tell you this. If christ in the new testament said the word hades then he was not sinless. It’s a sinful thing to mention the names of pagan gods in the torah (exodus 23:13). I’m only writing them to illustrate my point to you but jesus if he said the name of a pagan god in greek then he was not sinless.
Also the hebrew word sheol means the grave. Not any kind of hellfire. When we die we go to the grave. The book of Ecclesiastes says that the dead know nothing. Surely they would at least know they were burning forever in torment don’t you think my friend lol? The doctrine of the immortal soul contradicts Ecclesiastes so I cannot and will not be afraid of any hellfire and neither should any of you.
I’m telling you to at least have an open mind and to study for AND against your religion before you decide that it is the right religion for you. Judaism has stood the test of time and even christians base their religion of of ours but they have also went our from us and made their own religion that in my opinion is just the wroship of the sun in the sky like all of the other pagan religions that worship created over creator.
The jewish messiah will come to renew the covenant of the jewish people. He will not come to make a new religion nothing that is nothing like the jewish religion that they say they have fulfilled.
I don’t believe in blind faith like christians do. I cannot believe without studying and proving without a doubt that I am right. If it really happened it can be proven in history and the history of the christian church is rooted in pagan religions that predated it.
Again I have no hatred toward christians but I just don’t feel they have the information available to make an educated decision about christianity because they are taught that it is right while everything else is wrong or has been fulfilled lol. If the christian religion is not operating inside the torah then it is not from the creator. Period.
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Who said that Christianity does not recognize jewish religion?
We do recognize jewish religion and we believe mostly everything the Torah teaches.
Living by grace means, if you love God and your neighbor you would not break the old testamential laws of “Do not kill”, “Do not commit adultery” etc.
You’re quite mistaken, if you think that we the Orthodox Christians teach unlawness, right on the contrary. God is a God of order and we’re obliged to follow laws and fastings!
If your claim was true that our saviour Jesus Christ was invention of Rome how comes that the Christians, were persecuted in the Roman Empire for their faith in Christ (you can check this and confirm it in history books).
If your claim that Rome invented Christianity, how comes that then that Emperor Titus destroyed Jerusalem in his futile attempts to make the Story of Resurrection be lost forever.
Not only this but he the Roman Emperor Titus destroyed all Jerusalem to its grounds and ploughed it seeding it to seed it with weed.
If your claim was true why did he does this? 🙂
“I don’t believe in blind faith like christians do.”
If you study the scriptures, old and new testament reasonably you will find out that what we believe is not blind at all but the on the contrary.
Even Jesus commanded us to study the scriptures and the prophets, which did prophecised about him.
If you truly stick to Jewish faith and you reject the after-life after death and you still claim belief in God. Then what’s the purpose in life? If life ends with our physical death and there is no soul. Why do you still lookup for something more everyday. If you’re so convinced you’re right and there is no God, immortal soul, heaven and hell. Why do you still bother to argue about it?
Christians have plenty of information to make an educated decision. If you really want to read about Christianity and it’s history take your time and I’m sure you can find more than enough facts which supports that Christianity is not a vague non-sense as you currently think but is based on rock solid-grounds (both scriptural and historic).
“If the christian religion is not operating inside the torah then it is not from the creator. Period.”
So you believe in the Torah but you reject the Torah?
Just for your information we the Orthodox Christians believe all written in your Torah which is in the Old Testament Holy Bible books.
We believe all the writtings in the Holy Bible (which includes the Old Testament (Torah) + old testament scriptures and then the New Testament scriptures).
Hope my explanations will shed some light.
Wish you luck with your searches!
Best,
View CommentView CommentGeorgi
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Oh and by the way the greek word that you translate as cross is the word stauros which actually means an upright stake. I’m telling you that the cross is pagan and represents the divisions of the four seasons of the year. i can’t make you believe it but I don’t think you can prove me false either.
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Cross has been a symbol used, from ancient times before Christ our Lord has been manifested on earth in the flesh. That’s pretty normal it’s first use as a symbol of salvation according to Church tradition was by the Jews, when they were leaving egypt. When the Angel of Death went through the whole city and killed all the firstborn of the Egyptians, God had instructed the jews to take a lamb, eat it without breaking it’s bones, where nothing should be left until the morning as well as to put a sign with the blood of the lamb to each of the Doorways where a jews were living. The exact shape of the blood sign that was put on the doors of the jews was a cross shaped. This is one of the many ancient prophecies for Christ who will be hang on a tree.
The Crucifixion on a tree is even also in accordance to the Old Torah’s law which says:
“If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.†(Deuteronomy 21:22-23)
That is why it is written in the New Testament by st. Apostle Paul
Apostle Paul stated,
“Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’).†(Galatians 3:13)
where he quotes the old Torah scriptures here.
Note that the cross as a sign symbol comes from the Tree which had a form similar to the Cross. That is why we as Christians adopted the life-giving Cross as a symbol which refers to Christ who was crucified for our sins and redeemed us from the Curse of the old Testamential (Old Torah) laws by being a sinless sacrifice, taking on himself all of our infirmity and curses caused by us breaking the established God’s law.
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Hi Giorgi,
Please review what I said. All Orthodox celebrate on December 25, just some celebrate December 25th according to the Gregorian calendar, and some celebrate according to the Julian calendar. December 25 on the Julian calendar (which is used my most Orthodox) happens to be January 7th on the Gregorian calendar.
Wes, because the Messiah has come, every day is the Sabbath. This is the Christian teaching. We gather on Sunday (which is not a Christian term, by the way, but a pagan one) because it is the eighth day, that is, the day of the new creation inaugurated by the resurrection of Christ, through which death and sin have been abolished.
Much of what you are writing shows a lack of basic understanding of Orthodox Christian theology. Much of what you are arguing against here has nothing to do with what we teach. Of course God is loving. More than that though, the New Testament actually explicitly says that God is Love. Please go learn some basic Orthodox Christian teaching.
Orthodox Christians believe that the Law has been fulfilled in the sense that the Messiah Jesus has brought humanity back into paradise, i.e. communion with God. The Law, as our Fathers teach, is life giving, however the context for the giving of the Law was also a world which was separated from God. For example, the priesthood began in part as a reaction against the sin of the Golden Calf. Therefore, the priesthood, because it was a reaction to sin, is imperfect. It is not a part of the Kingdom of God, in which humans are united to God.
Along similar lines, in the Stone Edition Chumash, there is a comment about circumcision that says that circumcision is performed as a reminder of what life was like before humanity was exiled from paradise. So… when Messiah brings humanity back to Eden, will circumcision still be performed?
Christians, because they participate in the life of the Kingdom of God here and now, are not bound by the Law, because the Law was a tutor to bring people to the Messianic age. I am speaking here of Orthodox, Apostolic Christians. I do not speak for Christians who are not Orthodox because they do not share the same Apostolic Faith and Life.
In other words, the Life in Christ is the Life of the World to come.
Of course we have to keep the commandments. This is repeated over and over again in the New Testament, even by Paul, whom you do not understand because you do not know the teachings of the Orthodox Church, which is the context in which Paul was writing.
I do not know much about the similarities between the Osiris story and the New Testament. I am sure that they matter, but perhaps not in the way you think. But I do not know much about it and I don’t really feel the need to go into it. The main question that you need to answer is, who was/is Jesus, and are the claims about Him true, especially of the Resurrection? Did you know that there is an Orthodox Jewish professor who has written a book making the case that Jesus rose from the dead?
Jesus’ disciples willingly suffered martyrdom because they were witnesses to the resurrected Christ. They even ate with Him and touched Him. So.. why? Many people will die for an ideology. The martyrs, however, died for an event. The event that they witnessed is the resurrection of Jesus. This is the ultimate form of testimony. These are the same apostles who, after Jesus had died, went back to their homes to do their normal business, and then, bam, they were preaching the resurrection, a preaching which was sealed in their martyrdom. Blind faith? No. Instead, the Faith of Christ is the only Faith by which man can truly see and know and worship the one true God as He truly is.
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As for what you have said regarding the inconsistency of a loving God with the idea of a God who tosses you into everlasting hellfire because you did one thing wrong, you are of course correct. If this were the case then we created beings would be more merciful than the creator (God forbid). Thankfully this is not the case. What you are rightfully arguing against is a heretical innovation that was the result of the human hyperrationalism of schismatic Christians, who preferred their own thinking over the tradition which had been faithfully handed down through the ages.
What Christ’s death on the cross accomplished was NOT the assuaging of an angry, vengeful God. Such an idea is totally pagan and is abhorrent to the Orthodox Faith. If you are interested in learning what the early Church (which is the Orthodox Church) has always taught and believed regarding this particular event, please let me know and I will furnish you with some resources so that you can at least better understand the authentic Apostolic teaching regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Thankfully The Hebrew scriptures do say, however, that God is a consuming fire. The same fire which purifies gold consumes wood. Please see the following piece of writing which explains one Orthodox view of hell: http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm.
Also
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thanks for the link Jacob!
I’ll check it out a bit later when I have time.
Also concerning Wes’s comment that Sunday comes after some cult to the Sun I will say that it is written in the Gospel, that our Lord Jesus Christ is called “The Sun of Righteousness”.
“But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness
arise with healing in his wings,” MAL 4:2.
If I can conclude after, Christ being called within the Church and in the Gospels the Sun of Righteousness. Then it’s very likely that Sunday comes after “The day of the Sun of Righteousness”.
It’s an interesting fact that Sunday is only an english and also in a few other languages, in the rest languages it’s not necessery Sunday.
For instance in Russia the Sunday is called “ВоÑкреÑенье” if literally translated to English “Resurrection” 🙂
In ancient Bulgarian it’s недѣлıа – (ÐÐµÐ´ÐµÐ»Ñ in modern one) and literally means “A day that is not worked on”.
By the Jacob, thanks a bunch for helping me in answering Wes
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Btw Giorgi, Christ is Risen! How is your Paschal season going?
Blessings in the Lord.
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Truly he is Risen! It’s good times of the year, a times of spiritual joy as you know.
The only sad thing is a brother in Christ and a friend of mine has suddenly passed just about 2 weeks ago. The doctors couldn’t find what his sickness was for many months and then suddenly he left this life.
But it’s according to God’s will we can’t decide when our time will come.
Apart from that life just flows, i’m working this days on configuring Domainkeys for few of the mailservers I’m administrating.
btw where do you live in? What kind of Orthodox Church do you go to?
Wish you Best!
Georgi
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Alright let me give you the opinion of how a jewish person views this replacement theology that christianity practices. Christians hold that not only is the torah REPLACED by a new covenant but that it is obsolete/on it’s way to vanishing (Hebrews 8:13). Then the new testament says that the torah brings death instead of life which contradicts jewish theology (2 Corinthians 3:6). Then christians even label the law as a curse which the jewish people absolutely do not believe (Galatians 3:13). The entire book of galatians is offensive to any jewish person because judaism is called legalism and even stupid (galatians 3:1-5). Christianity is not a part of the jewish religion. It’s even anti jewish or anti torah. Your new testament itself even says so calling the torah legalistic and stupid. That not only is an insult to jewish people but an insult to the creator who gave the laws to moses in the first place!
Christianity basically is saying that god gave the torah to the jewish people on purpose knowing that they could never ever fulfill it and so his chosen people were created doomed in the first place lol? Christianity at every turn trys to make judaism look obsolete. The Torah says that it is “not too hard for thee, neither is it far off”. Christian theology contradicts the torah in regards to it’s thoughts on the law. Not only that but the tanahk says that you are not to add to or take away from the law. Christianity has broken the commands of the torah in this fashion as well saying that some of it is abolished or fulfilled.
Again no matter how much christians to try to reinterpret the covenant of the jewish people or twist scripture to make it look fulfilled I cannot tell you how wrong christians are when they say that the torah and all of it’s commands are not an eternal covenant. If you wan’t to believe in some sun god then thats fine but don’t steal jewish scripture to do it.
Let me give you a torah lesson. Exodus 31:17 says that the 7th day sabbath is “a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested”. Now having read that how can you say that the sabbath is everyday when the torah says that the 7th day is a sign between the creator and the Israelites to be kept forever? Any biblical scripture that contradicts the idea of the sabbath day being abolished is not a part of the torah so it also is not from g-d. Funny how christians contradict exodus with their own teachings.
Deuteronomy 4:40 says…”Thou shall keep therefore his statutes, his commandments, which i commanded thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the lord thy g-d giveth thee FOREVER”.
Deuteronomy 4:2 says…”Ye shall not add unto the word which I commanded you, neither shall thee diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the lord your g-d which I command you”.
Deuteronomy 5:29 says…”O that there were such a heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments ALWAYS, that it might be well with them, and with their children FOREVER”.
Deuteronomy 12:32 says…”What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it”.
Deuteronomy 4:8 says…”And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which i set before you this day?” (The law is righteous to g-d…not a curse)
Proverbs 7:2 says…”Keep my commandments and live: and my law as the apple of thine eye.” (g-d doesn’t seem to think the law is death here)
2 Kings 17:37 says…”And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, YE SHALL OBSERVE TO DO EVERMORE; and ye shall not fear other gods”.
The law being eternal and perfect is not a hard concept to grasp if you try. The Tanakh and the creator himself plainly states that his laws and judaism in general are an everlasting covenant.
If the new testament says anything in opposition to this then it is telling on itself in my eyes. If the new testament contradicts the torah then it is not of g-d and is not inspired scripture.
So when a christian tells me that I need jesus and that I cannot keep the law then they obviously are ignorant of what hashem said in the tanakh and are not following the same g-d of the jewish people.
Deuteronomy 30:11 says…”For the mitzvah (laws/commandments) which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach. It isn’t in the sky so that you need to ask, ‘Who will go up to the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’ Likewise it isn’t beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, ‘Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?’ On the contrary, the word is very close to you–in your mouth, even in your heart: therefore, you can do it!
^^ I think that just about says it all right there. The law is not a burden or a curse of any kind and can be kept. We are not helpless to the law. The only way you make yourself helpless to the law is if you decide yourself that you can’t and won’t attempt to keep it. You are not helpless. You are not a slave to the christian original sin. You could keep the law if you wanted to but you freely choose not to keep it. Grace seems easier and you really don’t have to act any different than the pagans do. After all the ONLY DIFFERENCE between the people of g-d and the gentiles/pagans is the law. If you erase the law then you have nothing left to tell the people apart and thats why g-d gave it!
Again I don’t hate christians. I know a lot of them are good people. They just have not been taught the ways of YHVH.
YHVH is not a trinity again either. I’ll prove it with the tanakh.
Numbers 23:19 says…”God is not a man that he should lie, nor THE Son OF MAN, that he should repent”.
Jesus is called the son of man so how can he claim to be g-d who in the old testament says he is not a son of man?
Furthermore the trinity concept fits in perfectly with pagan religions. The father, son, holy spirit trinity is that of a father, son, and mother. In christianity G-d is the father, jesus is the son, and mary is the holy spirit or the comforter of all mankind. Just ask the pope lol!
The pagan trinity of the gospels is nothing new.
In Egypt it was Osiris, Horus, and Isis.
In Babylon it was Nimrod, Tammuz, and Semiramis.
Hindu trinity is Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva.
The list goes on and on culture after culture. The trinity is not new. Judaism is the only monotheistic religion in the world. We hold that god is one. God does not become man and man does not become god. God is not three different people in a trinity like Aphrodite, Eros, and Pan in Greece or any other trinity that I mentioned where god has both a male and female aspects of himself lol. God is one not three. Christians just don’t understand their own concept of a trinity and where it came from originally. Please do more studying on this.
I am not telling you all of this just to be right. I’m telling you this because I think you need to understand the jewish position on monotheism and why christianity is rejected by the jews.
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Let me give YOU a torah lesson.
Firstly, it’s clear you don’t know hebrew, since the word Olam does not directly mean forever as you say, but basically for a period of time with an unknown duration.
Perfect example is Jonah 2:6. Here is the Hebrew:
לְקִצְבֵי ×”Ö¸×¨Ö´×™× ×™Ö¸×¨Ö·×“Ö°×ªÖ´Ö¼×™ ×”Ö¸×ָרֶץ בְּרִחֶיהָ בַעֲדִי ×œÖ°×¢Ö¹×•×œÖ¸× ×•Ö·×ªÖ·Ö¼×¢Ö·×œ מִשַּ×חַת ×—Ö·×™Ö·Ö¼×™ יְהוָה ×ֱלֹהָֽי׃
Here, ‘Le Olam’ is actually translated in the KJV as ‘forever’, but the duration of ‘Olam’ here is only the three days Jonah is in the belly of the whale.
Example 2 is in Exodus 21:6. Here is the Hebrew:
וְהִגִּישֹ×ו ×Ö²×“Ö¹× Ö¸×™×• ×ֶל־הָ×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×•Ö°×”Ö´×’Ö´Ö¼×™×©Ö¹×ו ×ֶל־הַדֶּלֶת ×ֹו ×ֶל־הַמְּזוּזָה וְרָצַע ×Ö²×“Ö¹× Ö¸×™×• ×ֶת־×Ö¸×–Ö°× Ö¹×• בַּמַּרְצֵעַ וַעֲבָדֹו לְעֹלָֽ×
Here, ‘Olam’ signifies only the duration of a human life.
The better translation for the word Olam is ‘age’, as in, an age (ex. bronze age, etc.)
On to point two: replacement theology.
Replacement theology is a new idea born of Protestant teaching and thus is not a part of the Apostolic Faith of the Orthodox Church. So, there’s really no need to address it, other than to say that there is only, and ever only has been, and only ever will be one Israel, and that is the Church. No replacement.
Point three: the commandments and fulfillment.
I have already addressed this. You do not understand the NT at all. The commandments DO give life. However, human beings cannot on their own bring humanity back into communion w/ God which mankind lost when they turned from God in the act of the ancestral sin. The commandments that you are describing teach us how to be the best men of this world. Jesus, the King Messiah of Israel, has enabled us to be men of the world to come.
Point three: Son of man
Most places in the Tanakh the title Son of Man carries no special messianic significance and indeed refers to the finite nature of humanity. This in itself is not in opposition to what we teach, for the Church boldly confesses that Jesus is one person in two natures (a divine nature and a human nature). However, in the book of Daniel we see something very interesting:
(Ch. 7:13):
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.”
So… is this just some normal guy coming down from heaven to establish an everlasting kingdom?
1 Enoch, a widespread and commonly used pre-Christian Jewish text dated between BC 100 through AD 100, which did not become part of the rabbinic canon at Jamnia, develops the Jewish concept of the Messianic and Pre-Existent Son of Man further:
“For from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden” (1 Enoch 62:7)
Also, the Son of Man is identified as the companion of God:
“with Him was another Being whose countenance had the appearance of a man..He went with the Head of Days…” (1 Enoch 48:6)
The Son of Man is also in this Jewish book given judgment over the world:
“the sum of judgement was given to the Son of Man” (1 Enoch 69:27)
Finally, I will just point out that Jesus constantly refers to Himself as THE Son of Man to distinguish or compare Himself from other human beings as the unique Son of Man. Examples:
“John the Baptist has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine… The Son of Man has come eating and drinking..” (Luke 7:34)
“As Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation” (Luke 11:30)
Finally, to answer your question directly, here is a quote from St. Cyril of Alexandria:
“having personally united to Himself flesh animated by a rational soul did in an ineffable and inconceivable manner become man and was called the Son of Man, not merely according to the will, or pleasing to be so called, neither on account of taking to Himself a person, but because the two natures being brought together in a true union, there is both one Messiah and one Son.”
Also, as I said before, Jesus is the Word of God. You believe that the Torah is the Word of God and your scholars say that the Torah pre-existed the creation of the universe, implying the Torah is God by nature. The Word of God is distinct from God and yet is God by nature. He is God from God, light from light, begotten but not created.
Mary is not a person of the Holy Trinity. She is a creature.
The Jewish scriptures speak of God’s Spirit and His Word. That is the Trinity. God creates through His Word and breathes Life through His Spirit.
I think you need to understand Jewish monotheism before you start talking about it.
I would like to ask you a question. Was there ever a time that God was without His Word or Spirit?
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Oh btw the first time that I read about the Eternal sabbath was in a Jewish, non-messianic haggadah that said that when the Messiah comes, every day would be sabbath. The fact that this same teaching is found in the Church Fathers, many of whom were not Jews, from the beginning up to our own time just further goes to show that the Jewish Messiah has indeed come.
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Oh and why do i not believe in a heaven, hell, or the immortal soul doctrine? The hebrew word for soul is the word ruach. That word means wind or the breath of g-d. It’s not something that lives on forever and ever. Genesis 2:7 says that g-d breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being. To have had an immortal soul you would have to have had already been a living being before your flesh was created. The bible teaches that we are all created and only g-d has immortality. By bible I mean the tanakh. I do not mean the new covenant or testament.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says…”and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to god who gave it”.
^^ That pretty well says it all.
Oh and as far as the law is concerned. If you break one commandment then you have broken all of the law. So if you say thou shalt not murder you should also say remember the sabbath to keep it holy. You cannot pick and choose what you like from the torah. Either you keep all the law or none of it. There is no in between. The Law (Judaism) and Grace (Christianity) are two different things. There is no in between.
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You are correct that God has breathed into man’s soul after creating man.
Note here that God has breathed his spirit into man before the fall of man caused by the original sin to disobey God’s word and eat from the apple. After the fall from grace of Adam and Eve. We become mortal and we the humans lost the eternal life that once God has granted us.
That is exactly why God by his love send in this world his only begotten Son to die for redemption of the original sin in Eden’s garden and through that give us back eternal life.
Still even though we are once recovered from original sin, our choose to obey God and follow his ways and by his grace at the end of life get eternal salvation and life in heaven or disobey him and do evil and as a natural consequence of falling from grace to end up in hell.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says…â€and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to god who gave itâ€.
Yes our spirit and soul returns to God and has to give an account for all his deeds here on earth (good and bad).
It’s then up to God’s final decition to where do we belong to either Heaven always to be with God and his eternal love or hell.
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It’s best to try to consult an Orthodox priest about your questions, I’m quite sure there are many priests who can precisely answer your questions.
And yes you’re correct reading the “Torah” unspiritually is simply a law (rules and regulations), where the spiritual reading of the Torah and the rest of the books in the old Testament and the New Testament as well as the Chuch traditions’s books is a live of love and peace in God.
Note that we cannot really have love, if we disobey God’s law, but the law itself is not saving us it is God’s love that is being manifested in sending his only Son to die for our sins and save us from the negative eternal consequences a sin implies.
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I don’t understand… you just quoted a verse that specifically says the spirit returns to God. You think that implies that your soul just disappears?
Christian teaching is not that heaven and hell are places that souls go when our bodies die. This is basically a platonic pagan belief which has nothing to do with Orthodox Christianity which has taught the same thing since the Apostles.
Finally, it needs to be said Wes that you certainly don’t represent most of Judaism here. Judaism has a very long tradition of teaching reincarnation, heaven, and a sort of purgatorial state. I was taught this at Aish Ha Torah Yeshiva in Jerusalem.
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Oh and that all seeing eye you posed is the eye of horus who was the egyptian version of your jesus. The jewish people were slaves to the egyptians for a while you know. YHVH saved us from them and their pagan ways though as you read in Exodus so don’t pass that off as a jewish symbol because quite honestly it isn’t at all.
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Hi Wes,
If I remember correctly this “all seeing eye” you’re talking about on the picture is actually taken from
the website jewfaq.org. This is a website made by Jewish which explains thoroughfully Judaism and it’s symbology.
I think you might have not enough knowledge of your own religion and thus many of the things you claim are quite away from the truth (please don’t take this as personal it’s just facts.). By the way the way Jews call God is YHWH and not YHVH, also Jeshua (Jesus) literally translateds meaning is “Jehovah saves”.
Kind Regards,
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Wes you also don’t understand the Orthodox Christian idea of grace. It is not ‘yay, now we get into heaven and nothing we do matters’. Nothing like it. That is essentially a pagan notion that was imposed on to Christian teaching.
Please read:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/non-orthodox_ch2.pdf
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Wes you also don’t understand the Orthodox Christian idea of grace. It is not ‘yay, now we get into heaven and nothing we do matters’. Nothing like it. That is essentially a pagan notion that was imposed on to Christian teaching.
Grace is God’s uncreated energies.
Please before you respond go and at least read the wiki page on Eastern Orthodoxy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Christian_theology
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Alright we need to go through some things real quick. First of all in regards to the sacred name being YHWH as the tetragrammaton. There is no letter W in the hebrew language so that can’t be the name. It can’t be the christian Jehovah either because there is no J in hebrew either. Just like the name of your messiah as Jesus. Even if he existed nobody would have called him by that name because it simply didn’t exist until what the last few hundred years or so? Nobody can accurately pronounce the name of g-d because there are no vowels in hebrew either. So whenever we come to the name of g-d we will say lord or Adonai because we don’t know the name. I would still have to say that YHVH is the more accurate tetragrammaton though. So all these names you christians call g-d are easily disproved if you look at the hebrew language.
Next in regard to the law. You say that orthodox christians are not lawless but how exactly do you pick which laws are eternal and which laws are not? I believe firmly that all the law is eternal. I’m sure laws against murder, theft, and so on are kept but that doesn’t say much because most of the free world and even those who don’t believe in g-d think those things are wrong as well lol. How about things which the torah forbids like tattoos? I see christians getting crosses on themselves? Is this not a sinful behavior?
It seems to me that living by the spirit is living by which laws you want to keep and by ignoring those that you don’t want to keep. Why did jesus not go through all 613 commandments one by one and make the distinction himself so we could understand? I mean just keeping 9 commandments is a rather small percentage of the torah lol. I say 9 because sabbath keeping is considered legalistic by most christians. Even if the sacrificial system was stopped at the death of your messiah that would still make more than 10 commandments that could still be kept today including laws on sexual behavior and so on. However all I’m told by christians is that I’m legalistic for trying to live my life the way virtually everyone else in the tanahk did and thats by the word of g-d. This has me very confused because no christian denomination can seem to agree with another about exactly what to keep and what not to keep in regards to the law. It seems like it ranges not only from denomination to denomination but even person to person! Saying I need to “live by the spirit” is not telling me anything about which laws are not to be kept and which laws still apply today. I firmly believe the law was written down for a reason. It was written down so we wouldn’t forget it and could distinguish between the people if israel and the gentiles. However the law not being present makes the line a bit blurry don’t you think? Just something I’d like you to think about. After all if you christians are all given the same holy spirit then why isn’t it working in harmony with all the denominations? Why doesn’t the spirit tell all christians the same thing? It doesn’t make any sense at all to me.
The bible describes the torah as perfect, righteous, and holy. Again the new testament contradicts these things calling it legalistic, a curse, and even stupid in the book of galatians. Don’t run around it anymore. There is no in between when it comes to the law. Either all is to be kept or none is to be kept by grace. Either I need to keep the law to live a holy life or because jesus has saved me I can break all the laws because when g-d looks at me he sees jesus just like the preacher on television says lol! Man I cannot stand prosperity religion! False promises by false teachers is all I see when I wonder onto christian television.
Like i said before Jesus was in fact a jew if he actually existed. He was keeping the same laws as i am. He did not come to steal people from the jewish religion to another religion. Apparently his followers think so because christianity doesn’t resemble judiasm at all. Not with sunday, christmas, easter, anti torah teaching, and so on. The teachings of those like paul contradict what your messiah taught anyway. Jesus said to keep the commandments to attain life. He even taught that none of the law would be removed until when? Until the heaven and earth pass away right? Hasn’t happened yet lol. Christians take the words of paul before their own messiah when they talk about grace and not being justified by the law. Christianity IS NOT the religion of jesus. It is the religion about jesus. You worship the sacrifice as opposed to the one who provided it if you ask me in my honest opinion.
Never in the old testament do you see a jew worship the ram or lamb that he offered lol but christians worship their messiah who was offered. Thats not very jewish. It’s not very jewish thinking god is a man either. It makes god small and any orthodox jew will tell you that. Every pagan god and his brother died and rose again you know. I explained that and gave examples but you ignore me and my examples. What makes jesus different from mithra or horus? The story is the almost the same but the names have been changed and some aspects of the story have been changed to make it look unique but the idea is the exact same. A pagan god man who is representative of the sun coming to die for all of mankind is not in any way a new concept once again!
The covenant between the jewish people and g-d was never suppose to turn into a new covenant. A renewed covenant is what the jewish people are expecting. Not something totally different from what we were taught to give our lives for should we have to do so. Why do you think we had to stone lawbreakers in the tanakh? It was to not only show the seriousness of keeping the law but to rid the land of those who taught against it. So you have the ego to tell me that those who we stoned just had bad timing because if they had been born now we could have just forgiven them lol? Judaism teaches and preaches the sincerity of the law while christians throw it over their shoulder and disregard it. Thats probably the thing i dislike the most about this particular religion.
Follow a jewish messiah but don’t be a jew lol.
Your messiah didn’t even fulfill the messianic prophecies of building the third temple, bringing world peace, making everyone a believer in g-d, and bringing all the jews back to the land of Israel. You christians counter it will be in the second coming but not one little place in the hebrew bible talks about the messiah having a second coming. The messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright which jesus did not do. A second coming is just the creation of christians to justify where jesus fell short.
Also the jewish people believe in national revelation. The law was given to the entire jewish nation for example. It wasn’t hidden for the select few who believe like the gospel apparently was lol. If G-d makes a decision it makes sense that he will tell everyone as opposed to just a few people. Christianity reeks of the pagan mystery religions where you had to be initiated to understand their teachings.
The messiah was also suppose to be from the line of david as well. Jesus did not fulfill this because he had no human father. The geneology or family name is passed on through the male. Thats why when a brother died with no children his brother had to marry the widow to carry on the bloodline or family name (Deuteronomy 25:5). If jesus had no human father it was impossible for him to come from the line of david through his father. Thats just a non deniable fact.
Also in regards to the comments about me not representing most of the jewish people when it comes to reincarnation etc etc I think I need to make my position known. I do believe in a world to come. I’m not an atheist lol. I do not however believe that when a person dies their immortal soul burns forever if they don’t know g-d. I also don’t believe in a purgatory where g-d can’t make up his mind if you should be saved or not like the catholic church teaches apparently. I believe in a resurrection but I do not believe those who are saved go immediately to paradise or heaven right when they die. The soul of a man is the wind or breath of g-d that was put into his body at creation. It didn’t exist separately from g-d prior to that time so it can’t be immortal. The breath of g-d returns to g-d who gave it. By soul I do not mean a person. I’m talking about the breath of g-d. Thats why the bible says he “gave up the ghost” when someone dies. The ghost/soul/spirit of someone belongs to god. It’s not that we are still alive in any fashion after our body dies. It’s just that the life force that made our bodies wake up has left and returned to god. Your concept of a soul is that we have a being that drifts up out of us when we die. I believe that without a soul aka wind or life force in the human body we are sleeping in sheol (the grave). We don’t haunt people, burn in hell, or get carried to heaven by angels. During the messianic age we wake from our sleep and are given a new body.
It’s a totally different concept than the christian life after death stuff. When you die you have no knowledge. You do not have a spirit that can think or reason beyond the grave. The life force leaves the body when we die and our body awaits the resurrection.
Then you asked was there ever a time that god was without his word or his spirit? The correct answer is no. The word has always existed and the spirit of god came upon people even before jesus. You’ll read that in books like 1 Samuel, 1 Kings, and etc. So if the spirit of god can come upon people without the sacrifice of jesus then why do we need him again? I thought we only got the spirit once we are a believer?
1 Samuel says…”Does Adonai take as much pleasure in burnt offerings or sacrifices as in obeying what Adonai says? Surely obeying is better than sacrifice and heeding orders than the fat of rams.”
G-d would rather we just obey him than rely on sacrifice anyway. Speaking of that only pagan religions sacrificed people. The creator hates human sacrifice and would be a hypocrite had he forced someone to be sacrificed himself.
Deuteronomy 12:30-31 says…”Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.”
Jeremiah 19:4-6 says…”Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Eternal, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but The Valley of Slaughter.”
Psalm 106:37-38 says…”Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.”
Ezekiel 16:20 says…”Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter?”
G-d hates human sacrifice..period! He hates it from us and he would not do it himself. It just isn’t a part of his character. Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac but guess what? G-d stopped him. Why? He was testing his faith. He wanted faith and obedience. Not the murder of an innocent person for forgiveness. Get my drift?
Furthermore when moses tried to atone for the sins of the people in Exodus 32 he was told that he could not because…”each man dies for his own sin.” A mediator who takes penalty on himself is not a jewish concept. Just read Deuteronomy 24:16 if you don’t believe me. It will tell you exactly what I’m trying to tell you.
The concept of a sinless lamb of the passover is not the only way to attain salvation or forgiveness of sin either. In some cases you could use pigeons or even a sacrifice of flour if you were poor but never was there a human in the hebrew bible who died for atonement.
Numbers 31:50 even says that they brought earrings and necklaces to make atonement. Thats a far cry from human sacrifice.
G-d cannot die either. This is pretty basic stuff. If G-d is immortal then he is not subject to death. Hosea 11:9 says “For I Am G-d And Not A Man.” G-d cannot die and he isn’t a human. Jesus died and his followers claim that he was also human. It contradicts the scriptures. Virgins births, gods sleeping with human women, and so on is pagan. So is human sacrifice and the savior rising again after three days. Horus did it before jesus so why arent you placing your faith in him for example?
The jewish religion and pagan religions have nothing in common. Christianity is a combination not only of some jewish teaching but also of multiple pagan religions as well. Thats why the catholic church is called universal because it contains something of everything in it somewhere. Like the popes fish hat comes from Dagon the fish g-d for example. All christian churches are the product of this one church. It was created to unite the roman empire by constantine but instead of uniting rome it is swallowing up the entire world.
The concept of light versus darkness or jesus versus satan is a pagan idea as well. Yin and Yang or light and darkness is always a part of sun worshiping religions. Horus versus Sut is the exact same thing as jesus/satan as well. It’s not very monothestic to believe that g-d is fighting against a rebellious angel. That implies that he doesn’t have supreme authority and that Satan can do as he pleases. Zeus against Hades or Jupiter against Pluto are other examples.
^^ In Judaism we believe in Hasatan (Just satan to you) as an angel that serves g-d as sort of a tempter of mankind. He isn’t working against g-d and can’t do as he pleases. Just read the book of Job. Satan has to ask the creator first before he can do anything to Job. He isn’t rebelling against the creator at all. Isaiah 45:5-7 says…
“I am the Eternal, and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Eternal, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Eternal do all these things.”
There is no entity that competes with G-d. He creates good and evil. He tests mankind with evil. However satan is not an angel who can just do as he pleases by his own authority. That would violate the basic meaning of the word monotheism if Satan could compete with g-d.
To sum everything I have said up really fast I think that christianity contradicts the hebrew scriptures and makes up any excuse they can get by with to try and make their religion look like the fufillment of judaism despite the fact it has nothing in common with judaism. Scriptures have been twisted and even mistranslated to do this. Paganism has been added in as well to appeal to heathens while certain laws are preached to appeal to jewish people. It’s a little bit of everything.
Also Daniel 7:13 is not about Jesus. It’s about Israel.
In exodus 4:22 g-d refers to Israel as his firstborn son. Then he says let my son go in order to worship me. Christians falsely conclude at times that when g-d is talking about his son he is talking about jesus like in the book of matthew when he says i have called my son out of egypt. However that is not a prophecy but about Israel. This scripture is the same way. You have to be very careful with prophecy.
If you look further in Daniel you will see in verse 27 that “the kingdom, the rulership, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be give to the people of the most high. THEIR kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey THEM.” This is plural. Them means more than one. It would be just him and singular if it was talking about your jesus. So the eternal rulership belongs to a people being Israel who is sometimes called god’s son in a singular form.
Like A Son Of Man is the personification of the nation of Israel just like in exodus 4:22. It is a simile comparing it to something that is not a man but instead like a man.
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As you pointed out Wes, in Daniel it refers to the Kingdom as belonging to both, but it does not indicate that the Son of Man is both a singular and a plural. This is completely consistent with New Testamental teaching.
Your understanding of the Jewish teaching on Satan (in which Satan is a willing agent of the Almighty) is not the historical Jewish understanding. It in no way reflects, for example, pre-Christian Judaic understandings of Satan as demonstrated in the ancient Jewish texts of the 1st century BC nor does it jive with the Jewish practice of exorcism which is both current and ancient.
Even so, you misunderstand (again) Christian teaching. Christian teaching is not that God and Satan are struggling against eachother. Rather, the teaching is that God is already victorious (how could it be any other way) and that Satan, having rejected God, realizes this but wants to draw as many people away from God as possible. God, in His boundless wisdom and love for His creation, allows us to be tempted in order to grow spiritually (as in the case of Job which you mentioned)
Of course God cannot die. Yes, this is basic. This is one of the foundational reasons of how Jesus’ death accomplished for us the end of death. When Jesus died, death came face to face with Life. God is Life and Light, and in Him is no death.
Again, with the preacher guy, you are not discussing the Orthodox Christian faith. When God looks at us, He sees us. We will be judged according to our deeds. We don’t even believe half of the stuff you’re arguing against. The prosperity Gospel is not Christian, it is delusional.
Jesus accomplished everything you described. He did rebuild the temple, He gathered in Israel, He restored True worship of the one True God to all nations. He left nothing unaccomplished. If you want to understand how this is so, you will have to open your mind and put forward some effort to get to know the teachings and life of the Orthodox Church.
The different denominations you speak of are irrelevant since they are not representative of the Apostolic Faith. The Orthodox Church has taught exactly the same Faith from the Apostles to our present day. The Orthodox Church is not a denomination, it is the Body of Christ, which is the creation united to the Creator. The first members of the Orthodox Church were the Holy Angels when they were created.
I could go on and on addressing each one of your points, but honestly you just don’t know what Christianity teaches. Even if it’s just so you can at least know what you’re talking about, I would strongly recommend you go an check out a few books on Orthodox Christianity. You will be surprised at how similar Judaism and true Christianity are.
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Thanks for the comment Jacob. Hope this will be helpful to Wes.
Many things from your comments are even helpful for me. I never knew there is ancient Jewish tradition of exorcism? That’s quite shocking for me. Could you tell me few more things or send me a link or suggest a resource where I can read about this.
And you’re absolutely right, propserty teaching of Christianity is a lie. Nowdays pitily there are even some modernistic orthodox communities which does confess partly this ungodly philosophy.
View CommentView CommentModernisn in Orthodoxy is quickly taking speed. For instance in our local Orthodox Church here in Dobrich Holy Trinity on last preach after the Holy Liturgy our priest shared they have bough an electronic bell which will be programmed to ring the bell 😐
This is not that necessery in my view as most of the weeks only 3 days a week there is a Holy Liturgy or evening services, that’s (Friday, Saturday and Sunday).
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Obviously this is what happens when a couple of headstrong people get into a debate lol. I think that neither of us entered the debate with any actual intention of converting to the ideas of the other so we both are probably wasting our time I suppose. Having said that I still can’t resist the opportunity to make a few more comments.
Satan has already been defeated and g-d already victorious you say? That would imply that at one time there was a struggle and that still Satan needed defeating in the first place lol. So whether you call him defeated or not is irrelevant. It still poses the problem of the creation of g-d being out of his control for a time and one of his beings not bowing to his will despite willingly knowing his power and supreme authority. If Satan was truly the most intelligent angel in heaven at one point you would think that he knows he can’t defeat or even attempt to fight g-d. Even a mere human being like me knows that effort would be useless. Humanity was given a free will and a plan of redemption. However angels given a free will with no redemption? That doesn’t sound fair. Well sorry you made a bad decision and your screwed? That doesn’t sound like the character of g-d to me. If we can mess up so bad and be forgiven I don’t see why they can’t be forgiven either.
After all Satan being a tempter can’t make mankind do something that they don’t already want to do anyway. Satan doesn’t murder anyone. The person whom was tempted makes the decision to carry out that crime. Simple as that. I could tell you to go and murder the king of england because he’s a horrible person who eats babies but that still doesn’t mean you have to go out and do it lol. Besides I already quoted scripture of g-d telling us that he creates both good and evil for his purposes. The majority of christians say god is all loving and is not responsible for the creation of any evil despite the creator saying he was partly responsible himself but only to teach mankind and not to lead them astray. Satan gets a bad wrap for doing the will of g-d despite Isaiah 45:5-7 saying otherwise. It’s all man made teaching if you ask me in my opinion.
I still hold to the fact that if a created being (an angel for example) who willing does his own will despite having all the knowledge of g-d is not only one incredibly stupid angel but violates monotheism since apparently satan has his own will, his own plan (whether it works or not), and his own followers in this world. Not to mention again all the pagan stories of a good g-d versus a bad g-d like Zeus/Hades fighting one another despite the good g-d being victorious in the end.
A christian friend of mine who knows my position runs into questions all the time about why was satan created? Why didn’t g-d see the rebellion of satan coming in the first place? Why didn’t g-d destroy satan outright instead of letting him continue in his ways? Some of those questions for him have been hard to answer to non believers. My response is that satan is not a rebellious angel but does the will of g-d. There is no disorder in the kingdom of g-d. Satan does as he is told by g-d who creates good and evil as stated in the tanahk.
You see I don’t hate the gentiles. It’s actually the exact opposite. I feel sorry for the gentiles and show a special kindness to them because in all honesty they just haven’t been taught the ways of the torah. How can I or anyone else call a man good or evil when he hasn’t been given the true knowledge on how to be good in the first place (torah)? The purpose of the jewish people is to be a teacher and example to the pagan nations of the one true g-d of Israel. We aren’t here to be arrogant or brag about our knowledge of g-d. We are here to show kindness to the nations and to teach them as opposed to condemning them.
This good against evil or satan versus g-d/jesus thing is all a scam that creates hatred and even fear to control the people. Throughout history this satan character as well as hellfire has been used to literally scare people to death in order to get them to bow to a pope, king, or so on. When you come out of the deception and rise above it is when g-d can really use you for good. The torah/the tanakh is here to show us the right way to live and I believe puts the evil satan being in rebellion to god story to rest. G-d creates good and evil to accomplish his plan for man. He doesn’t make mistakes like not seeing in advance a rebellion of satan or creating a place of torment for those that don’t believe in him. Death has always been the only penalty of the enemies of g-d. An infinite punishment is not a fair penalty for a finite crime like some churches hold to absolutely terrify their people to put butts in the seats on sundays.
There are bad apples in any religion (judaism included) but if you know the torah and apply it to your life you can’t go wrong. All modern religious wars have been fought because they violated the torah and disregarded it’s commands for their own goals/dreams. Hitler being one of those people not very long ago actually.
The Torah is life, goodness, righteousness, perfection, and even the character of the creator himself. Thats why I get so agitated when someone says it either does not apply, has been fulfilled, or is flat out stupid like the book of galatians has called it. The torah is the only difference between jew and gentile. The only difference between the people of g-d and those who don’t know the creator. I refuse to bow to lawlessness and anyone who speaks against the torah I am always going to be very skeptical of and for good reason.
Jesus did not come so that we could forget the torah. He didn’t come to abolish it in his very own words! However the followers of this man do the exact opposite as he did. They put grace before the law and when they do that bad things happen. History has proven that again and again. I wouldn’t have a problem believing if everything added up but in my eyes the evidence against christianity heavily outweighs evidence for it. It’s not that jews are ignorant of your religion. It’s just that aspects of your religion either violate, add to, or take away from ours.
As for this antichrist character you speak of I don’t believe in him at all. However I do know the torah and if this person violated it do you think that I would not be the first person to stand up against him? Maybe the jewish people aren’t as gullible or lost as the world thinks because I am not willing to trade the torah for world peace. Without the torah there can be no world peace! This antichrist character seems like he would be easily recognized anyway so I’m not very worried.
I believe that g-d is one.
I believe that the jewish people are the people of g-d.
I believe the sabbath day to be the only biblical day of worship.
I believe the law is eternal (not abolished, fulfilled, or stupid).
These things are the only things that make us different from pagans/gentiles and once we brush them aside we are no different than any other people on earth. The tanakh is full of stories about the people of Israel messing up and mixing the law of g-d in with the worship of other deities. Christianity to me is the worship of another deity and I will not make the mistakes of those in the past.
Why is Jesus a solar deity (the sun)?
-He has 12 disciples (the 12 signs of the zodiac).
-His followers worship on the day of the sun.
-His birthdate is widely known as Dec. 25th which is the birth of the sun and many different other saviors throughout history.
-He was supposedly resurrected on easter which again is pagan.
-He fights against an evil deity just like other pagan god men did.
-He rose again like the sun and other pagan deities.
-His symbol is a cross which is the division of the four seasons in which the sun travels through the zodiac every single year.
-His mother mary is called the mother of g-d despite the fact that g-d cannot be born because he has always existed.
It’s important to understand that in the pagan religions their deities were thought to be real people when in actuality they never existed. They were just the worship of stars, the sun, and so on as allegories. Thats exactly what the gospel is. It’s an allegory.
There is more I could mention but those are some of the basics. I know I know you don’t believe in all of those things but my point is that most of the christian world does. Why are you not fighting against other christian denominations against these things if you don’t believe them? Why convert to your own religion when the christian world in general seems like it can’t agree and itself needs fixing?
I wish you luck in your studies but nobody has ever proven to me without a doubt that my religion is false. You even agree it isn’t false as a christian but say it was fulfilled and became something new which i absolutely refuse to believe because of facts I stated. I just want you to keep an open mind and not to believe in something because it’s the popular thing. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world after all.
Shalom!
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You didn’t enter the debate with the idea of converting the other person to your ideas? Then why did you comment in the first place? To blow off steam? That is not consistent with Torah which teaches that speech is a very important gift which should be used wisely. If you truly want Shalom, I would advise against getting involved in debate and argument for the sake of argument.
I entered the ‘debate’ because you are tragically misinformed about what the Church actually teaches, and posting incorrect information about her, and so I set out to correct you.
You said:
“Satan has already been defeated and g-d already victorious you say? That would imply that at one time there was a struggle and that still Satan needed defeating in the first place lol. So whether you call him defeated or not is irrelevant. It still poses the problem of the creation of g-d being out of his control for a time and one of his beings not bowing to his will despite willingly knowing his power and supreme authority. If Satan was truly the most intelligent angel in heaven at one point you would think that he knows he can’t defeat or even attempt to fight g-d. Even a mere human being like me knows that effort would be useless. Humanity was given a free will and a plan of redemption. However angels given a free will with no redemption? That doesn’t sound fair. Well sorry you made a bad decision and your screwed? That doesn’t sound like the character of g-d to me. If we can mess up so bad and be forgiven I don’t see why they can’t be forgiven either.”
It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with Satan. Satan does not want to change. In fact, there is a story I once heard of a group of holy men praying for the redemption of Satan. Satan appeared to them, and said, “It’s not me that needs to change, it’s God”. How often our response is similar! There has not ever been nor shall there ever be a time when God is not ‘in control’. However, how often do we fall short and make mistakes despite knowing God’s supreme authority and power? You say that you know such an effort would be useless, but are you perfect? No. In fact, the scriptures are replete with human beings who know the power of God and yet the knowledge of that power only hardens their heart further (for example, Pharaoh in the book of Exodus).
In any case, the Church’s understanding of such things is based on her experience in real life, which validates our interpretation and which is also more consistent with the ancient Jewish view and experience of the demonic. I took an entire college course on Judaism at the time of Jesus and Hillel and I can tell you that the Judaism of the time was replete with stories of angels rebelling against God, exorcisms (which still occur in Judaism today), etc.
You said:
“I still hold to the fact that if a created being (an angel for example) who willing does his own will despite having all the knowledge of g-d is not only one incredibly stupid angel but violates monotheism since apparently satan has his own will, his own plan (whether it works or not), and his own followers in this world. Not to mention again all the pagan stories of a good g-d versus a bad g-d like Zeus/Hades fighting one another despite the good g-d being victorious in the end.”
Except no where in the teachings of the Church is Satan ever described as a god, other than in the sense that perhaps he is worshiped by some as a false god (occult). Satan is a creature, no more, and this has always been the teaching. Being smart doesn’t mean that you obey God. One can be a very simple minded person and yet know God more fully than a rocket scientist.
“The Torah is life, goodness, righteousness, perfection, and even the character of the creator himself. Thats why I get so agitated when someone says it either does not apply, has been fulfilled, or is flat out stupid like the book of galatians has called it. The torah is the only difference between jew and gentile. The only difference between the people of g-d and those who don’t know the creator. I refuse to bow to lawlessness and anyone who speaks against the torah I am always going to be very skeptical of and for good reason.”
Galatians does not call the Torah stupid. Yes, I think your skepticism is there for a good reason. But I think that the attitude towards the torah that you are describing is not coming from the Orthodox Church.
You said:
“Why is Jesus a solar deity (the sun)?
-He has 12 disciples (the 12 signs of the zodiac).
-His followers worship on the day of the sun.
-His birthdate is widely known as Dec. 25th which is the birth of the sun and many different other saviors throughout history.
-He was supposedly resurrected on easter which again is pagan.
-He fights against an evil deity just like other pagan god men did.
-He rose again like the sun and other pagan deities.
-His symbol is a cross which is the division of the four seasons in which the sun travels through the zodiac every single year.
-His mother mary is called the mother of g-d despite the fact that g-d cannot be born because he has always existed.”
First of all, the fact that there are some similar themes between these stories in no way invalidates the story of the Gospel. It is a distraction from the only relevant question which is, who is Jesus Christ really (not just who do you or I say He is)?
Also, I would add that you are being hypocritical in that there are many ancient pagan religions that show considerable similarities IN SOME OF THEIR STORIES to the stories in the torah. For example, there are many ancient stories, particularly from the middle east, which describe a flood covering the earth. Another example would be the connectedness of the babylonian story of Ishtar an Marduk with the story of Esther and Mordecai. You are quick to jump to conclusions about the Church but when it comes to your own religion you apply a double standard.
1) The fact you connect the number 12 with paganism is troubling, considering that it is such a recurrent symbolic number in the Torah (12 sons of Jacob and thus 12 tribes of Israel). It is for the former reason that Jesus chose 12 disciples, thus representing the totality of Israel. Again though, all you have shown is that to multiple nations, including the Hebrew nation of Israel, the number 12 is important.
2) We worship on the eighth day, the day of the new creation, which is a very, very Jewish concept, present in non-Christian rabbinic literature.
3) The reason we celebrate the Nativity of Jesus on the 25th of December is not because we think that’s His birthday.
4) Historically the name of the feast commemorating Christ’s resurrection is not Easter, which is a name derived from a pagan festival, but Passover. This is still the name of the feast in all the Orthodox Churches around the world.
5) There is no evil deity in Christian teaching, there is only one God.
6) He rose again therefore He is pagan? Give me a break here. Yes, the Sun rises. It also gives light. Therefore, of course it is symbolically representative of resurrection. But by your logic, all resurrection is therefore pagan.
7) One of the symbols used by Christians is a cross, yes. That is because Jesus died on a cross… Other religions use the star as a symbol, does that imply therefore that Judaism is pagan because the star of David is a prominent symbol?
8) Jesus was fully human and fully divine. Mary gave birth to a man who is God by nature, being Himself the very Word of God who was with God from before creation. Therefore yes, she is the Mother of God.
In Judaism I think the same thing happens today. You believe that the Torah is uncreated. Some teachings, for example, hold that even the letters themselves are mystically a part of the nature of God (or at least revelatory of God and serve to unite us to Him… I’m probably not wording it exactly correct but I think you get the gist). So if the Torah is uncreated (and therefore God by nature), and someone writes down the Torah, well, they essentially are writing down something which is God by nature, being ‘writers of God’. Perhaps no one says this, but I think that the logic is still there.
Finally, I would say that your conclusion of Jesus being a ‘solar deity’, basically a regurgitation of previous Sun gods, etc., is based more on your predisposition than the facts. The facts you’ve given only demonstrate that there happen to be some similarities in the stories. Supposed that this actually is true, it is just as likely that God was using the myths or religions of these pagan peoples to prepare them for the Truth of the Gospel. None of the above mentioned themes has anything to do with whether what was claimed in the Gospel accounts actually happened or whether Jesus is truly Risen from the dead and is the Son of God.
Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
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First of all I didn’t say I wasn’t trying to change your mind. I said that neither of us were willing to change our own minds when entering the debate. Neither of us actually entered it with an open mind like “hey maybe I will convert if he can make sense of all of this”. The point I was making is that I commented to try to change your mind despite my brain telling me you don’t want to hear it anyway. You totally misunderstood what I was telling you. I don’t argue for no reason and thought that maybe I would at least give my opinion on christians calling the future messiah of judaism an antichrist which is a bit offensive. There isn’t even any evidence for or against it yet because he hasn’t come so your giving a bias opinion on something that hasn’t even happened yet. That to me is called spreading hate. You judge someone you don’t even know or even have yet to see yet? Thats just silly.
Satan appearing to a group of holy men? What were their names? Where did they come from? Did they get pictures? I’m not going to change my mind based on something that someone said they thought they saw one time lol. Christians are very superstitious people. Someone disagrees with them in an argument and they start to cry persecution or claim that as a christian told me once “I think satan has gotten to you”. Obviously anyone who doesn’t hold the popular christian view is evil and following the prince of darkness.
Satan does the will of god who creates good and evil for his purposes. Anything else doesn’t make sense. If any old angel can just change his mind about serving g-d then what prevents a future war in heaven? Why was there a war in heaven in the first place? Why did Michael have to fight satan when g-d could have flicked him out of heaven with his finger if g-d even has human fingers lol? It doesn’t add up for angels not to be under the control of g-d. Mankind in our ignorance is a different story. We are born without knowledge of the creator so g-d gave us a chance to know him through his torah and make a choice for or against him and his laws.
Angels were created by g-d to serve g-d. They don’t have the free will that we have. They serve the creator and that’s it. Angels are not made in the image of g-d like we are. They can’t reason. They don’t feel emotion. They do as they are told. Period. The satan fighting g-d story is a strictly christian invention to scare people to make money and get them in church because if they aren’t in church…they’ll burn..lol.
Oh and demonic possession and so on in the old days was not understood very well. When the story of Jesus was created we didn’t have the medical knowledge that we have today. So blindness, sickness, or mental illness of any kind back in the day was demon possession. Now thanks to modern technology, medicine, and so on we have proved that those people are not demon possessed and can cure them without an exorcism. They are sick that’s all.
Also the pharaoh in exodus believed in more than one god. He was a pagan and probably viewed the god of the jewish people as one in a handful of many g-ds at the time. He didn’t believe the god of the jews was THE g-d. He just believed that he was a g-d of some kind. Never ever ever ever did pharaoh admit that his g-ds were false and that the g-d of Israel was the one true g-d. If he did believe that he would probably have converted lol.
Oh and who told you to celebrate the nativity of jesus on december 25th anyway? Give me a new testament scripture or command anywhere telling them to do this on that date and I’ll shut up about that forever. If you can’t find one then I suggest you read up on the history of the date and run as far away from it was you can because it’s a man made tradition that came from the catholic church. All christian churches are daughters of that one church.
I hope you’ll find your way our of this paganism but the choice is yours.
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Wes nothing you’re saying is new. read this: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/PelphreyChristmasP2.php
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Oh wow. After reading that I’ve come to the conclusion that your right. G-d wants his people and the gentiles to intermix. As a matter of fact he wants them to intermix their traditions so much that neither jew nor gentile is even recognizable in the world today. I’m so glad I can claim to follow the one true god all the while I can also act almost completely pagan. It makes so much sense to me now. I can’t believe I never saw it before lol! God doesn’t and never ever has wanted a set apart people who keep his law because the law is evil and a curse. The purpose of the gospel was to free us from the curse of the law so that when we act like and keep ungodly pagan tradition he can just forgive us!!! No more condemnation for naughty behavior. So decorate your christmas trees, hide your easter eggs, take part in as many different pagan fertility holidays as your like!! The g-d of the old testament who told you to keep the law has changed his mind apparently and now wants us to be forgiven an unlimited amount of times because jesus took your unlimited sins upon himself! So you’ll more than likely see 0 jews in heaven for trying to live righteously but for those have given up and blatantly submit to law breaking he will forgive you in the name of jesus!
I believe thats basically what the gospel is saying. Oh no wait! There are those like 9 commandments out of the 613 that we are suppose to keep still. Roughly 1% to 2% of the actual law that it’s still ok to keep but the other 98% of the torah is all man made jewish tradition which should be long forgotten because of the this jesus christ character ESPECIALLY sabbath keeping. Thats absolutely the most evil of all lol.
Man oh man jesus sure would put moses in his place for giving man all of those commandments which we obviously don’t need. I mean they should have just forgiven all the sinners in the tanakh instead of stoning them despite g-d himself telling them to put the sinner to death. Hold on a second. Wait a minute….
Old Testament G-d: Put the sinner to death for breaking the law
New Testament G-d: Don’t stone them after all
Sounds like G-d can’t make up his mind not only on which laws are eternal but what the punishment should be for sins?? Instead of stoning a sinner he just burns them for eternity now. Much better lol…
Judaism and Christianity are 100% different. Judaism is the faith of the jewish people and christianity is the biggest gentile religion in the world. They don’t go together and neither do the gods of the old/new testaments. One upholds the law and tells us to put sinners to death while the other says that this is wrong and we should just forgive. This trinity stuff sure is confusing. One part of the trinity is for the jews while the other part is for the christian religion. The three parts of the trinity can’t seem to agree on anything.
Sorry for the sarcasm and the mindless rambling but thats how I feel everytime a christian spits on the jewish religion with speeches of man made tradition, anti torah sermons, pagan fertility holidays in the name of the jewish messiah, and so on. You have ripped off our book and added to it which our book forbids. You even reinterpret what our book says and make it look like g-d gave the jewish people the law to fail on purpose. The jews never ever had a chance. Those poor souls that got stoned were just at the wrong place IN the wrong time lol. If they’d done the same sin a couple thousand years later they could have gotten by with it right? No condemnation in christ jesus after all lol.
Christianity does not come from judaism and the entire jewish community finds it offensive that you guys say it does. Just admit you practice a different religion and we would be cool with that. Just don’t steal our tanahk to do it. Don’t preach about how evil the jews and their traditions are either when the christian religion itself is guilty of worse crimes than the jewish people have ever done. Oh but wait one denoinations says they didn’t take part in it so that must mean that everyone else is apostate but us!! I’m sure even a lot of christians would find those comments offensive lol. Either all of christianity is right or all of it is wrong. Don’t just dip your toe in the water instead of going all in lol. Your either a jew or a christian and nothing in between. Two completely different religions with two completely different perspective on life.
I’m done debating because it’s pointless but I think you never understood judaism in the first place and can’t wrap my mind around the fact that you use to be one. Or even were you? It doesn’t matter. Your a jew who keeps jewish law or your a christian who practices paganism. Make the choice but don’t try to mix the two together.
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Wes,
I understand your frustration, and a lot of what you’re saying makes sense (especially the part about apparently God giving the Law when the Hebrew people didn’t stand a chance, even though the text explicitly says that it is within reach).
However, your post also indicates that despite everything I’ve said, you are still arguing with things that the Orthodox Church simply doesn’t teach, for example your statement above about us not being held accountable for our lawlessness.
I have spent a long time learning Jewish teaching, from the Jewish sources, reading different commentaries, listening to rabbis speak, even going to classes. Obviously I am not an Orthodox Jew, so I do not understand as well as someone who is in that type of community, but I think I have a very good foundational understanding of Judaism and how Jews understand themselves, God, and the Torah.
No one here was spitting on Judaism, which in my opinion has a long and noble tradition of serious thought and scholarship which would make the discussion here much more productive. The author of the post was simply comparing our teaching of the messiah with yours. This is not a judgemental statement, but a theological (and maybe speculative?) one.
As for your statement about ‘all of Christianity’ being right, I think you are being a little unfair here. Suppose some random person stood up in the park and said, “Judaism teaches that UFOs came to earth and sent the Torah to Israel as a joke”, and another Jew said that that is ridiculous, would you think it fair for someone else to say, “no, either all of Judaism is correct, or none of it is”? Clearly, the UFO fanatic is not representing Judaism. So in terms of what ‘Christianity’ teaches, one must first figure out who is actually qualified and authoritative to speak on such issues. Even then, there is some wiggle room for personal opinions, as there is in the observant Jewish communities today. I’m convinced that the Orthodox Church is the Apostolic Church and is therefore the authentic representative of Jesus’ teachings.
I think that you may be right about the debate going on here. Perhaps it is unfruitful. It would probably be better to be humble and ask God to show us reality and the truth. I am not offended that you think Christianity is Pagan. That is your theological opinion. I do think however that it is possible to discuss these things in a fruitful way (though this is probably more difficult over the internet).
I am glad that you find life in the commandments. I pray that God will grant you a greater abundance of life, peace, and joy, and that God continues to draw all of us more and more into the Truth of who He really is.
Best,
Jacob
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Also with regards to the stoning, I could be wrong but I don’t think that the woman in question was tried according to the standards of the law. It appears to be sort of a mob action more than a carrying out of justice. It’s worth notice that according to the rabbinic teaching on the Sanhedrin, it was nearly impossible for them to put someone to death. So the stoning of the adulterous woman seems inconsistent with the rabbinic teaching on the Jewish code of Justice and the Jewish ethical requirements of a Sanhedrin (which don’t seem to even appear in the story indicated that the woman probably didn’t even get a trial… although I am not sure if women were afforded the same legal protection as men in actual practice at that time).
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Jacob brother,
Thanks for the thorough comment.
I would say that maybe this post was a bit provocative, but most of it reflects the truth that Jewish understanding of messiah is worldly and carnal exactly the opposite of ours as Orthodox Christians.
First time I heard that Jews had this kind of understanding about the expected Christ by them was thought by me impossible.
That’s why I took the time and investigated if this kind of claim is truthful and a Jewish belief and it appeared to be correct.
Therefore I decided to share this here on my blog.
Of course not all Jewish people believe and expect a messiah it’s just a belief of the mainstream Judaism and a believe in most of Jewish communities. Just like in Christianity Judaism has it’s branches so I have to say my article on the topic was a bit general.
You’re right that this kind of dispute is not very productive but on the other hand I’m thankful cause I learned interesting things from your comments.
Also I hope it was helpful to Wes to find out how wrong about his understanding concerning Christianity and how it is like to be a Christian is.
Best,
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Since you mock Christianity so badly and you claim it’s not true. Why do you take the time to do so if it’s not truthful?
If there is no Sun would people talk about the Sun? If therefore our saviour Jesus Christ was not on earth and have not been crucified and ascended to Heaven and sit in the right hand of God, why you still bother to hate him and blaspheme on his holy name?
About your claim there is no relation between Judaism and Christianity. If you’re a Christian and you get to know the Jewish tradition you will realize all your tradition is actually talking about God being a Holy Trinity, Christ being the Son of God who is coming to save us from sins and redemption through sacrifice of the only begotten son of God Christ.
If you really know your Tanakh you should read the list of prophecies about Christ’s, miraculous birth, living, miracles, suffering and resurrection. Christ fulfilled all you read in the Tanakh.
Wish you luck with your searches,
I pray that God is merciful on me the sinner and also be merciful to you in showing you the light of the world, his only begotten son before all ages our Lord Jesus Christ. I also pray He opens ups our eyes to understand the mysterious of his law to give him glory for his immeasurable mercies on us the sinners.
Georgi
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Ok I haven’t been on this page in a while but I feel like I’ve cooled down a little and am ready to discuss a few comments here.
The first thing I want to comment on is the reply right above me. Why mock Christianity so badly? Why take the time to do so if it’s not truthful? The simple answer to that question is the fact that for Christianity or any other religion for that matter to prevail would mean the death of all other religions. Judaism is not excluded from that. Now for Judaism to emerge victorious yes Christianity would have to be proven false.
The difference between Judaism/Christianity is that the Jewish people are currently waiting for g-d to send them the messiah that will free them from the pagan nations of this world. G-d is doing the work here. The Jewish people don’t have a command to convert the entire world. The Jewish people are just suppose to remain a holy set apart people until they are free of their enemies. We don’t push people to become jews. We sure don’t force them either. We just practice our Torah laws and wait patiently for our messiah to arrive.
Christianity on the other hand hasn’t been as patient as the Jewish people. Christianity unlike Judaism has a command by their pagan messiah to convert the entire world. The church in the middle ages took that to the level of any means necessary. Jewish people who refused to convert or be baptized would even be tortured or murdered. Witches and people who practice magic (which is forbidden by the torah) would be burned alive which is not something any christian in the new testament was ever commanded to do. Christians of the passed who also claimed to be spirit filled committed those terrible crimes against humanity. Even Adolf Hitler was a christian and a very antisemitic one at that. The sad thing is that even The Holocaust itself was nothing compared to how many people lost their lives over the entire middle ages period of time by the hand of christian believers.
So you see I am very fearful that these things might happen again. Christianity today isn’t nearly as bad as it was but you never hear anyone who tried to convert someone to Christianity mention the mass murder or the crimes of the churches past now do you? It’s like a bad dream the church is trying to hide or erase if possible. When blind people who are overzealous for the pagan sun god Jesus get the idea to start murdering people or torturing people until conversion is too much. I refuse to be part of a religion that won’t even admit that their churches aren’t perfect or could even be entirely wrong in their theology by calling anything that resembles Judaism stupid like in the book of Galatians.
For that matter if the christian church is suppose to be so persecuted in the end times then why is it the biggest religion in the world? If it was so truthful that the world would hate it then shouldn’t your numbers be relatively small compared to other “false” religions? Judaism holds to it’s laws and is hated by many but we never ever became so big and popular that we led an onslaught against other religions like the christian church has and hopefully never will do again but I have my worries.
So why badmouth Christianity? I think I’ve made my point.
Also about the prophecies of Christ or about any trinity I would have to say that your mistaken. The so called prophecies of Christ are just false interpretations of the Tanahk. Some of them false on purpose too I believe with my entire being. Also g-d being a trinity was something that he never revealed to the Jewish people. G-d being a single entity is what the Jews have always been taught. The concept of a trinity doesn’t show up until the the adding on of the christian covenant stuff. Show me a scripture in the OLD TESTAMENT where g-d explains himself as three parts and I’ll shut up but I can assure you that it does not exist. G-d is one unless you add on a “new covenant” which changes everything Judaism was built upon.
In Judaism there is no miraculous birth lol. The Jewish messiah is a man like you or me with flaws just like anyone else. The entire old testament is based on characters with flaws who the creator uses anyway. He never once demanded perfection of anyone before he used them.
You see the Jewish people in actuality will have more than one messiah as well. A messiah to a Jew isn’t a g-d who is also part man. The Jewish messiah is a man sent by g-d to accomplish a task or to do his will. Moses for example a Jewish person could call a messiah because he was sent by G-d to help deliver the Jewish people from the Egyptians. Joshua who was the greatest general in the history of Israel was also a Jewish messiah because he led the Jewish people to victory in battle against their enemies so that they could inhabit the land they were promised.
So you see the Jewish people are looking for someone like Moses or Joshua to lead them and be their messiah chosen by g-d to victory once again. Neither Moses or Joshua were thought to be divine. They were ordinary people who g-d used to accomplish his plan for Israel. The messiah the Jewish people are looking for in the future is a flawed man just like us but is also anointed by g-d to accomplish his will despite his imperfection and falling short of the perfect character of g-d.
Christians turned the Jewish messiah into a man-god which is a pagan idea and they haven’t looked back since lol but of course the pagan new testament isn’t going to tell you anything about that either. It claims to continue Judaism but without the one thing that makes a man a Jew…The law! The law and and the specific commandments it contains are the only difference between Jew and gentile. With the law abolished their is no way to tell the difference between the two and this is exactly what Christianity is trying to accomplish. Jesus is good but the laws that even he stood for are evil and a curse. What a joke man.
Your Christ doesn’t sound like a bad guy to me but your Christians don’t even resemble who he supposedly was or what he stood for as a Jew. I thought the point of being a christian was to be Christ like? Yes? Well then why don’t you be Christ like and practice Sabbath keeping? Or maybe celebrate the Passover? No? Oh yeah I remember Paul told you not to do silly things like that right? So maybe the purpose of being a Christian is to be Paul like then? Yeah that sounds more accurate.
I believe the character of Paul to be a false teacher who blatantly contradicts the teachings of your so called Jewish messiah.
Paul even admits that he is a liar in 1 Corinthians 9:19-22!
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became As A Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Paul would pretend to be anything to convert someone which is blatantly lying and not ethical in my opinion. At least I’m telling you I’m Jewish lol. I don’t pretend to be a christian to convert you to Judaism lol. Paul is ridiculous and should not be taken seriously.
I know your not liking what I’m telling you but I’m being completely honest with you. I’m not making any of this stuff up lol. I believe what I believe for a reason you know. I didn’t make this stuff up to convert you like the apostle Paul apparently did quite often. I just hope you can find it in yourselves to at least take what I’m saying into consideration.
G-d gave you a brain so that you could use it. Don’t cast it to the side and be a blind man is all that I’m asking. Study is the enemy of religion because when you study you learn that not everything they tell you is actually true or factual. My people are destroyed for their lack of knowledge it says in the bible. This is and always has been so true or not just the Jews but of all the people in every nation.
Wish you well in your studies. Shalom.
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One more thing….Paul speaking of course….
2 Corinthians 12:16 says….
“Let it be granted then that I was not a burden to you; but, crafty fellow that I am, I took you with trickery!”
Now he’s bragging about being a liar…lol.
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Heya Wes.
St. Paul explains here he did not used tricks to convince them of the truth but he used his life example and prayer to God to have mercy on them. He also shows humility by mocking himself. Be careful with the interpretation just quoting some bible text without the context does not reveal it’s true meaning.
Best!
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No comments about the crimes of the churches past? That’s typical. I fail to understand why Christians when they convert someone don’t give them the honest truth about their faith. Why not tell them the good deeds the Christians have done AND the bad things? Don’t you owe these people complete honesty when you try and convert them? Are you not willing to give them the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Until I see a christian missionary convincing someone to weigh both the good and the bad when they convert someone I am going to assume they are either ignorant of church history or are blatantly bias people who will do anything like St. Paul to convert unbelievers. At least the Jewish religion doesn’t hide anything about what we believe, where we come from, or the things we have been through in the past. Maybe that’s why our religion is much smaller than Christianity. We don’t lie or tickle human ears with religious prosperity gospels to make money.
Lets not forget why I got on this page in the first place. It was the christian attack of the coming Jewish messiah. You have already judged someone you haven’t even met yet. You don’t even understand who the true Jewish messiah was suppose to be in Jewish prophecy because the christian churches have reinterpreted what the definition of a messiah is suppose to be. You have made the christian messiah a demigod when in actuality he is just a regular man anointed by g-d to accomplish a task like Moses or Joshua.
In christian prophecy the anti messiah is actually a supernatural being with seemingly unlimited power and sometimes even satan in human form himself who claims to be g-d in the flesh.
This theology breaks Jewish law because the Jews believe their messiah to be just a regular guy. Not only that but any man or messiah who claims to be g-d himself is committing a terrible sin and the Jewish people would not follow him because he breaks Jewish law. So in actuality the Jewish messiah is nothing like the christian anti-messiah because he isn’t supernatural and he doesn’t claim to be g-d.
So in reality this entire debate was caused by Christian bias for their own religion who once again condemn another religion without properly understanding it beforehand. Now I’m taking things out of context and this is an attack on Christianity? Whatever…lol.
Funny how Christians when they lash out against other religions cry persecution when others simply defend themselves or show any opposition to the beliefs of your churches. I am defending the Jewish position as opposed to attacking the christian position. That’s that.
I’m still waiting for that old testament passage where G-d tells Israel that he is a trinity as well. Nobody has been able to supply that yet. I don’t view the new testament as scripture so you have to prove to me through the Tanakh that g-d is a trinity and I’m telling you that nowhere is there a passage that teaches the jews about g-d being anything more than a single entity. Only in sun worshiping religions is there a trinity.
That’s why Christ wears a crown of thorns or a corona. It’s a symbol of the rays of the sun around his head much like the halo he is wearing in much christian/catholic artwork.
That’s why Christians wear crosses. The cross is a sun symbol that divides the four seasons of the year. That’s also why there are only 4 gospels because the journey of the sun goes through twelve months or 4 seasons of the year before he dies and is reborn.
The rest of the new testament was voted on and added in by a group of men as “inspired scripture” as well at the council of nicea in 325 ad. Not all of these guys were “Christians” either. Different people from all different religions were present because the purpose of Christianity at that time was to unite the roman empire. That’s a lot of the reason the new testament is anti Jewish. You couldn’t unite the roman empire under Sabbath keeping, the Passover, and etc because the pagan believers hated those Jewish celebrations. Sunday fit in quite well though because the gentile religions of that time already worshiped the sun anyway.
The history of the new testament isn’t as inspired as you think lol.
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Hello Wes,
The Church crimes were done by Roman Catholics (during ages of Inquisition) after the Great Chuch Schism (the time when Roman Cathoics decided to change some parts of the ancient faith).
I see you continue to stuck to your dilusions about connection between some imaginary Sun God and the true king of earthly and heavenly king of Israel and our saviour Jesus Christ.
You’re correct that many Christians try to only talk about the positiveness of Christianity. I’m not one of these Christians. Christianity is not a bed of roses it’s a hard fight until the physical death. Christ did not promised us a good life and good monetary status here on earth but on the contrary he promised that we will be under persecution for our faith.
If you really want to have a debate you will have to first understand the Orthodox Church history. Talking about Christianity you mix up the Orthodox Christian faith with other Christian faiths, many of which hold up to a heretical ideas. You should clear this up if you want us to have a decent debate.
Best!
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