Comment on Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity by Jacob.
Let me give YOU a torah lesson.
Firstly, it’s clear you don’t know hebrew, since the word Olam does not directly mean forever as you say, but basically for a period of time with an unknown duration.
Perfect example is Jonah 2:6. Here is the Hebrew:
לְקִצְבֵי ×”Ö¸×¨Ö´×™× ×™Ö¸×¨Ö·×“Ö°×ªÖ´Ö¼×™ ×”Ö¸×ָרֶץ בְּרִחֶיהָ בַעֲדִי ×œÖ°×¢Ö¹×•×œÖ¸× ×•Ö·×ªÖ·Ö¼×¢Ö·×œ מִשַּ×חַת ×—Ö·×™Ö·Ö¼×™ יְהוָה ×ֱלֹהָֽי׃
Here, ‘Le Olam’ is actually translated in the KJV as ‘forever’, but the duration of ‘Olam’ here is only the three days Jonah is in the belly of the whale.
Example 2 is in Exodus 21:6. Here is the Hebrew:
וְהִגִּישֹ×ו ×Ö²×“Ö¹× Ö¸×™×• ×ֶל־הָ×Ö±×œÖ¹×”Ö´×™× ×•Ö°×”Ö´×’Ö´Ö¼×™×©Ö¹×ו ×ֶל־הַדֶּלֶת ×ֹו ×ֶל־הַמְּזוּזָה וְרָצַע ×Ö²×“Ö¹× Ö¸×™×• ×ֶת־×Ö¸×–Ö°× Ö¹×• בַּמַּרְצֵעַ וַעֲבָדֹו לְעֹלָֽ×
Here, ‘Olam’ signifies only the duration of a human life.
The better translation for the word Olam is ‘age’, as in, an age (ex. bronze age, etc.)
On to point two: replacement theology.
Replacement theology is a new idea born of Protestant teaching and thus is not a part of the Apostolic Faith of the Orthodox Church. So, there’s really no need to address it, other than to say that there is only, and ever only has been, and only ever will be one Israel, and that is the Church. No replacement.
Point three: the commandments and fulfillment.
I have already addressed this. You do not understand the NT at all. The commandments DO give life. However, human beings cannot on their own bring humanity back into communion w/ God which mankind lost when they turned from God in the act of the ancestral sin. The commandments that you are describing teach us how to be the best men of this world. Jesus, the King Messiah of Israel, has enabled us to be men of the world to come.
Point three: Son of man
Most places in the Tanakh the title Son of Man carries no special messianic significance and indeed refers to the finite nature of humanity. This in itself is not in opposition to what we teach, for the Church boldly confesses that Jesus is one person in two natures (a divine nature and a human nature). However, in the book of Daniel we see something very interesting:
(Ch. 7:13):
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.”
So… is this just some normal guy coming down from heaven to establish an everlasting kingdom?
1 Enoch, a widespread and commonly used pre-Christian Jewish text dated between BC 100 through AD 100, which did not become part of the rabbinic canon at Jamnia, develops the Jewish concept of the Messianic and Pre-Existent Son of Man further:
“For from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden” (1 Enoch 62:7)
Also, the Son of Man is identified as the companion of God:
“with Him was another Being whose countenance had the appearance of a man..He went with the Head of Days…” (1 Enoch 48:6)
The Son of Man is also in this Jewish book given judgment over the world:
“the sum of judgement was given to the Son of Man” (1 Enoch 69:27)
Finally, I will just point out that Jesus constantly refers to Himself as THE Son of Man to distinguish or compare Himself from other human beings as the unique Son of Man. Examples:
“John the Baptist has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine… The Son of Man has come eating and drinking..” (Luke 7:34)
“As Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation” (Luke 11:30)
Finally, to answer your question directly, here is a quote from St. Cyril of Alexandria:
“having personally united to Himself flesh animated by a rational soul did in an ineffable and inconceivable manner become man and was called the Son of Man, not merely according to the will, or pleasing to be so called, neither on account of taking to Himself a person, but because the two natures being brought together in a true union, there is both one Messiah and one Son.”
Also, as I said before, Jesus is the Word of God. You believe that the Torah is the Word of God and your scholars say that the Torah pre-existed the creation of the universe, implying the Torah is God by nature. The Word of God is distinct from God and yet is God by nature. He is God from God, light from light, begotten but not created.
Mary is not a person of the Holy Trinity. She is a creature.
The Jewish scriptures speak of God’s Spirit and His Word. That is the Trinity. God creates through His Word and breathes Life through His Spirit.
I think you need to understand Jewish monotheism before you start talking about it.
I would like to ask you a question. Was there ever a time that God was without His Word or Spirit?
Jacob Also Commented
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
Also with regards to the stoning, I could be wrong but I don’t think that the woman in question was tried according to the standards of the law. It appears to be sort of a mob action more than a carrying out of justice. It’s worth notice that according to the rabbinic teaching on the Sanhedrin, it was nearly impossible for them to put someone to death. So the stoning of the adulterous woman seems inconsistent with the rabbinic teaching on the Jewish code of Justice and the Jewish ethical requirements of a Sanhedrin (which don’t seem to even appear in the story indicated that the woman probably didn’t even get a trial… although I am not sure if women were afforded the same legal protection as men in actual practice at that time).
I understand your frustration, and a lot of what you’re saying makes sense (especially the part about apparently God giving the Law when the Hebrew people didn’t stand a chance, even though the text explicitly says that it is within reach).
However, your post also indicates that despite everything I’ve said, you are still arguing with things that the Orthodox Church simply doesn’t teach, for example your statement above about us not being held accountable for our lawlessness.
I have spent a long time learning Jewish teaching, from the Jewish sources, reading different commentaries, listening to rabbis speak, even going to classes. Obviously I am not an Orthodox Jew, so I do not understand as well as someone who is in that type of community, but I think I have a very good foundational understanding of Judaism and how Jews understand themselves, God, and the Torah.
No one here was spitting on Judaism, which in my opinion has a long and noble tradition of serious thought and scholarship which would make the discussion here much more productive. The author of the post was simply comparing our teaching of the messiah with yours. This is not a judgemental statement, but a theological (and maybe speculative?) one.
As for your statement about ‘all of Christianity‘ being right, I think you are being a little unfair here. Suppose some random person stood up in the park and said, “Judaism teaches that UFOs came to earth and sent the Torah to Israel as a joke”, and another Jew said that that is ridiculous, would you think it fair for someone else to say, “no, either all of Judaism is correct, or none of it is”? Clearly, the UFO fanatic is not representing Judaism. So in terms of what ‘Christianity’ teaches, one must first figure out who is actually qualified and authoritative to speak on such issues. Even then, there is some wiggle room for personal opinions, as there is in the observant Jewish communities today. I’m convinced that the Orthodox Church is the Apostolic Church and is therefore the authentic representative of Jesus’ teachings.
I think that you may be right about the debate going on here. Perhaps it is unfruitful. It would probably be better to be humble and ask God to show us reality and the truth. I am not offended that you think Christianity is Pagan. That is your theological opinion. I do think however that it is possible to discuss these things in a fruitful way (though this is probably more difficult over the internet).
I am glad that you find life in the commandments. I pray that God will grant you a greater abundance of life, peace, and joy, and that God continues to draw all of us more and more into the Truth of who He really is.
Best,
Jacob
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
Wes nothing you’re saying is new. read this: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/PelphreyChristmasP2.php
