Comment on Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity by Wes.
Alright we need to go through some things real quick. First of all in regards to the sacred name being YHWH as the tetragrammaton. There is no letter W in the hebrew language so that can’t be the name. It can’t be the christian Jehovah either because there is no J in hebrew either. Just like the name of your messiah as Jesus. Even if he existed nobody would have called him by that name because it simply didn’t exist until what the last few hundred years or so? Nobody can accurately pronounce the name of g-d because there are no vowels in hebrew either. So whenever we come to the name of g-d we will say lord or Adonai because we don’t know the name. I would still have to say that YHVH is the more accurate tetragrammaton though. So all these names you christians call g-d are easily disproved if you look at the hebrew language.
Next in regard to the law. You say that orthodox christians are not lawless but how exactly do you pick which laws are eternal and which laws are not? I believe firmly that all the law is eternal. I’m sure laws against murder, theft, and so on are kept but that doesn’t say much because most of the free world and even those who don’t believe in g-d think those things are wrong as well lol. How about things which the torah forbids like tattoos? I see christians getting crosses on themselves? Is this not a sinful behavior?
It seems to me that living by the spirit is living by which laws you want to keep and by ignoring those that you don’t want to keep. Why did jesus not go through all 613 commandments one by one and make the distinction himself so we could understand? I mean just keeping 9 commandments is a rather small percentage of the torah lol. I say 9 because sabbath keeping is considered legalistic by most christians. Even if the sacrificial system was stopped at the death of your messiah that would still make more than 10 commandments that could still be kept today including laws on sexual behavior and so on. However all I’m told by christians is that I’m legalistic for trying to live my life the way virtually everyone else in the tanahk did and thats by the word of g-d. This has me very confused because no christian denomination can seem to agree with another about exactly what to keep and what not to keep in regards to the law. It seems like it ranges not only from denomination to denomination but even person to person! Saying I need to “live by the spirit” is not telling me anything about which laws are not to be kept and which laws still apply today. I firmly believe the law was written down for a reason. It was written down so we wouldn’t forget it and could distinguish between the people if israel and the gentiles. However the law not being present makes the line a bit blurry don’t you think? Just something I’d like you to think about. After all if you christians are all given the same holy spirit then why isn’t it working in harmony with all the denominations? Why doesn’t the spirit tell all christians the same thing? It doesn’t make any sense at all to me.
The bible describes the torah as perfect, righteous, and holy. Again the new testament contradicts these things calling it legalistic, a curse, and even stupid in the book of galatians. Don’t run around it anymore. There is no in between when it comes to the law. Either all is to be kept or none is to be kept by grace. Either I need to keep the law to live a holy life or because jesus has saved me I can break all the laws because when g-d looks at me he sees jesus just like the preacher on television says lol! Man I cannot stand prosperity religion! False promises by false teachers is all I see when I wonder onto christian television.
Like i said before Jesus was in fact a jew if he actually existed. He was keeping the same laws as i am. He did not come to steal people from the jewish religion to another religion. Apparently his followers think so because christianity doesn’t resemble judiasm at all. Not with sunday, christmas, easter, anti torah teaching, and so on. The teachings of those like paul contradict what your messiah taught anyway. Jesus said to keep the commandments to attain life. He even taught that none of the law would be removed until when? Until the heaven and earth pass away right? Hasn’t happened yet lol. Christians take the words of paul before their own messiah when they talk about grace and not being justified by the law. Christianity IS NOT the religion of jesus. It is the religion about jesus. You worship the sacrifice as opposed to the one who provided it if you ask me in my honest opinion.
Never in the old testament do you see a jew worship the ram or lamb that he offered lol but christians worship their messiah who was offered. Thats not very jewish. It’s not very jewish thinking god is a man either. It makes god small and any orthodox jew will tell you that. Every pagan god and his brother died and rose again you know. I explained that and gave examples but you ignore me and my examples. What makes jesus different from mithra or horus? The story is the almost the same but the names have been changed and some aspects of the story have been changed to make it look unique but the idea is the exact same. A pagan god man who is representative of the sun coming to die for all of mankind is not in any way a new concept once again!
The covenant between the jewish people and g-d was never suppose to turn into a new covenant. A renewed covenant is what the jewish people are expecting. Not something totally different from what we were taught to give our lives for should we have to do so. Why do you think we had to stone lawbreakers in the tanakh? It was to not only show the seriousness of keeping the law but to rid the land of those who taught against it. So you have the ego to tell me that those who we stoned just had bad timing because if they had been born now we could have just forgiven them lol? Judaism teaches and preaches the sincerity of the law while christians throw it over their shoulder and disregard it. Thats probably the thing i dislike the most about this particular religion.
Follow a jewish messiah but don’t be a jew lol.
Your messiah didn’t even fulfill the messianic prophecies of building the third temple, bringing world peace, making everyone a believer in g-d, and bringing all the jews back to the land of Israel. You christians counter it will be in the second coming but not one little place in the hebrew bible talks about the messiah having a second coming. The messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright which jesus did not do. A second coming is just the creation of christians to justify where jesus fell short.
Also the jewish people believe in national revelation. The law was given to the entire jewish nation for example. It wasn’t hidden for the select few who believe like the gospel apparently was lol. If G-d makes a decision it makes sense that he will tell everyone as opposed to just a few people. Christianity reeks of the pagan mystery religions where you had to be initiated to understand their teachings.
The messiah was also suppose to be from the line of david as well. Jesus did not fulfill this because he had no human father. The geneology or family name is passed on through the male. Thats why when a brother died with no children his brother had to marry the widow to carry on the bloodline or family name (Deuteronomy 25:5). If jesus had no human father it was impossible for him to come from the line of david through his father. Thats just a non deniable fact.
Also in regards to the comments about me not representing most of the jewish people when it comes to reincarnation etc etc I think I need to make my position known. I do believe in a world to come. I’m not an atheist lol. I do not however believe that when a person dies their immortal soul burns forever if they don’t know g-d. I also don’t believe in a purgatory where g-d can’t make up his mind if you should be saved or not like the catholic church teaches apparently. I believe in a resurrection but I do not believe those who are saved go immediately to paradise or heaven right when they die. The soul of a man is the wind or breath of g-d that was put into his body at creation. It didn’t exist separately from g-d prior to that time so it can’t be immortal. The breath of g-d returns to g-d who gave it. By soul I do not mean a person. I’m talking about the breath of g-d. Thats why the bible says he “gave up the ghost” when someone dies. The ghost/soul/spirit of someone belongs to god. It’s not that we are still alive in any fashion after our body dies. It’s just that the life force that made our bodies wake up has left and returned to god. Your concept of a soul is that we have a being that drifts up out of us when we die. I believe that without a soul aka wind or life force in the human body we are sleeping in sheol (the grave). We don’t haunt people, burn in hell, or get carried to heaven by angels. During the messianic age we wake from our sleep and are given a new body.
It’s a totally different concept than the christian life after death stuff. When you die you have no knowledge. You do not have a spirit that can think or reason beyond the grave. The life force leaves the body when we die and our body awaits the resurrection.
Then you asked was there ever a time that god was without his word or his spirit? The correct answer is no. The word has always existed and the spirit of god came upon people even before jesus. You’ll read that in books like 1 Samuel, 1 Kings, and etc. So if the spirit of god can come upon people without the sacrifice of jesus then why do we need him again? I thought we only got the spirit once we are a believer?
1 Samuel says…”Does Adonai take as much pleasure in burnt offerings or sacrifices as in obeying what Adonai says? Surely obeying is better than sacrifice and heeding orders than the fat of rams.”
G-d would rather we just obey him than rely on sacrifice anyway. Speaking of that only pagan religions sacrificed people. The creator hates human sacrifice and would be a hypocrite had he forced someone to be sacrificed himself.
Deuteronomy 12:30-31 says…”Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.”
Jeremiah 19:4-6 says…”Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Eternal, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but The Valley of Slaughter.”
Psalm 106:37-38 says…”Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.”
Ezekiel 16:20 says…”Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter?”
G-d hates human sacrifice..period! He hates it from us and he would not do it himself. It just isn’t a part of his character. Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac but guess what? G-d stopped him. Why? He was testing his faith. He wanted faith and obedience. Not the murder of an innocent person for forgiveness. Get my drift?
Furthermore when moses tried to atone for the sins of the people in Exodus 32 he was told that he could not because…”each man dies for his own sin.” A mediator who takes penalty on himself is not a jewish concept. Just read Deuteronomy 24:16 if you don’t believe me. It will tell you exactly what I’m trying to tell you.
The concept of a sinless lamb of the passover is not the only way to attain salvation or forgiveness of sin either. In some cases you could use pigeons or even a sacrifice of flour if you were poor but never was there a human in the hebrew bible who died for atonement.
Numbers 31:50 even says that they brought earrings and necklaces to make atonement. Thats a far cry from human sacrifice.
G-d cannot die either. This is pretty basic stuff. If G-d is immortal then he is not subject to death. Hosea 11:9 says “For I Am G-d And Not A Man.” G-d cannot die and he isn’t a human. Jesus died and his followers claim that he was also human. It contradicts the scriptures. Virgins births, gods sleeping with human women, and so on is pagan. So is human sacrifice and the savior rising again after three days. Horus did it before jesus so why arent you placing your faith in him for example?
The jewish religion and pagan religions have nothing in common. Christianity is a combination not only of some jewish teaching but also of multiple pagan religions as well. Thats why the catholic church is called universal because it contains something of everything in it somewhere. Like the popes fish hat comes from Dagon the fish g-d for example. All christian churches are the product of this one church. It was created to unite the roman empire by constantine but instead of uniting rome it is swallowing up the entire world.
The concept of light versus darkness or jesus versus satan is a pagan idea as well. Yin and Yang or light and darkness is always a part of sun worshiping religions. Horus versus Sut is the exact same thing as jesus/satan as well. It’s not very monothestic to believe that g-d is fighting against a rebellious angel. That implies that he doesn’t have supreme authority and that Satan can do as he pleases. Zeus against Hades or Jupiter against Pluto are other examples.
^^ In Judaism we believe in Hasatan (Just satan to you) as an angel that serves g-d as sort of a tempter of mankind. He isn’t working against g-d and can’t do as he pleases. Just read the book of Job. Satan has to ask the creator first before he can do anything to Job. He isn’t rebelling against the creator at all. Isaiah 45:5-7 says…
“I am the Eternal, and there is none else, there is no god beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Eternal, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Eternal do all these things.”
There is no entity that competes with G-d. He creates good and evil. He tests mankind with evil. However satan is not an angel who can just do as he pleases by his own authority. That would violate the basic meaning of the word monotheism if Satan could compete with g-d.
To sum everything I have said up really fast I think that christianity contradicts the hebrew scriptures and makes up any excuse they can get by with to try and make their religion look like the fufillment of judaism despite the fact it has nothing in common with judaism. Scriptures have been twisted and even mistranslated to do this. Paganism has been added in as well to appeal to heathens while certain laws are preached to appeal to jewish people. It’s a little bit of everything.
Also Daniel 7:13 is not about Jesus. It’s about Israel.
In exodus 4:22 g-d refers to Israel as his firstborn son. Then he says let my son go in order to worship me. Christians falsely conclude at times that when g-d is talking about his son he is talking about jesus like in the book of matthew when he says i have called my son out of egypt. However that is not a prophecy but about Israel. This scripture is the same way. You have to be very careful with prophecy.
If you look further in Daniel you will see in verse 27 that “the kingdom, the rulership, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be give to the people of the most high. THEIR kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey THEM.” This is plural. Them means more than one. It would be just him and singular if it was talking about your jesus. So the eternal rulership belongs to a people being Israel who is sometimes called god’s son in a singular form.
Like A Son Of Man is the personification of the nation of Israel just like in exodus 4:22. It is a simile comparing it to something that is not a man but instead like a man.
Wes Also Commented
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
No comments about the crimes of the churches past? That’s typical. I fail to understand why Christians when they convert someone don’t give them the honest truth about their faith. Why not tell them the good deeds the Christians have done AND the bad things? Don’t you owe these people complete honesty when you try and convert them? Are you not willing to give them the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Until I see a christian missionary convincing someone to weigh both the good and the bad when they convert someone I am going to assume they are either ignorant of church history or are blatantly bias people who will do anything like St. Paul to convert unbelievers. At least the Jewish religion doesn’t hide anything about what we believe, where we come from, or the things we have been through in the past. Maybe that’s why our religion is much smaller than Christianity. We don’t lie or tickle human ears with religious prosperity gospels to make money.
Lets not forget why I got on this page in the first place. It was the christian attack of the coming Jewish messiah. You have already judged someone you haven’t even met yet. You don’t even understand who the true Jewish messiah was suppose to be in Jewish prophecy because the christian churches have reinterpreted what the definition of a messiah is suppose to be. You have made the christian messiah a demigod when in actuality he is just a regular man anointed by g-d to accomplish a task like Moses or Joshua.
In christian prophecy the anti messiah is actually a supernatural being with seemingly unlimited power and sometimes even satan in human form himself who claims to be g-d in the flesh.
This theology breaks Jewish law because the Jews believe their messiah to be just a regular guy. Not only that but any man or messiah who claims to be g-d himself is committing a terrible sin and the Jewish people would not follow him because he breaks Jewish law. So in actuality the Jewish messiah is nothing like the christian anti-messiah because he isn’t supernatural and he doesn’t claim to be g-d.
So in reality this entire debate was caused by Christian bias for their own religion who once again condemn another religion without properly understanding it beforehand. Now I’m taking things out of context and this is an attack on Christianity? Whatever…lol.
Funny how Christians when they lash out against other religions cry persecution when others simply defend themselves or show any opposition to the beliefs of your churches. I am defending the Jewish position as opposed to attacking the christian position. That’s that.
I’m still waiting for that old testament passage where G-d tells Israel that he is a trinity as well. Nobody has been able to supply that yet. I don’t view the new testament as scripture so you have to prove to me through the Tanakh that g-d is a trinity and I’m telling you that nowhere is there a passage that teaches the jews about g-d being anything more than a single entity. Only in sun worshiping religions is there a trinity.
That’s why Christ wears a crown of thorns or a corona. It’s a symbol of the rays of the sun around his head much like the halo he is wearing in much christian/catholic artwork.
That’s why Christians wear crosses. The cross is a sun symbol that divides the four seasons of the year. That’s also why there are only 4 gospels because the journey of the sun goes through twelve months or 4 seasons of the year before he dies and is reborn.
The rest of the new testament was voted on and added in by a group of men as “inspired scripture” as well at the council of nicea in 325 ad. Not all of these guys were “Christians” either. Different people from all different religions were present because the purpose of Christianity at that time was to unite the roman empire. That’s a lot of the reason the new testament is anti Jewish. You couldn’t unite the roman empire under Sabbath keeping, the Passover, and etc because the pagan believers hated those Jewish celebrations. Sunday fit in quite well though because the gentile religions of that time already worshiped the sun anyway.
The history of the new testament isn’t as inspired as you think lol.
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
One more thing….Paul speaking of course….
2 Corinthians 12:16 says….
“Let it be granted then that I was not a burden to you; but, crafty fellow that I am, I took you with trickery!”
Now he’s bragging about being a liar…lol.
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
Ok I haven’t been on this page in a while but I feel like I’ve cooled down a little and am ready to discuss a few comments here.
The first thing I want to comment on is the reply right above me. Why mock Christianity so badly? Why take the time to do so if it’s not truthful? The simple answer to that question is the fact that for Christianity or any other religion for that matter to prevail would mean the death of all other religions. Judaism is not excluded from that. Now for Judaism to emerge victorious yes Christianity would have to be proven false.
The difference between Judaism/Christianity is that the Jewish people are currently waiting for g-d to send them the messiah that will free them from the pagan nations of this world. G-d is doing the work here. The Jewish people don’t have a command to convert the entire world. The Jewish people are just suppose to remain a holy set apart people until they are free of their enemies. We don’t push people to become jews. We sure don’t force them either. We just practice our Torah laws and wait patiently for our messiah to arrive.
Christianity on the other hand hasn’t been as patient as the Jewish people. Christianity unlike Judaism has a command by their pagan messiah to convert the entire world. The church in the middle ages took that to the level of any means necessary. Jewish people who refused to convert or be baptized would even be tortured or murdered. Witches and people who practice magic (which is forbidden by the torah) would be burned alive which is not something any christian in the new testament was ever commanded to do. Christians of the passed who also claimed to be spirit filled committed those terrible crimes against humanity. Even Adolf Hitler was a christian and a very antisemitic one at that. The sad thing is that even The Holocaust itself was nothing compared to how many people lost their lives over the entire middle ages period of time by the hand of christian believers.
So you see I am very fearful that these things might happen again. Christianity today isn’t nearly as bad as it was but you never hear anyone who tried to convert someone to Christianity mention the mass murder or the crimes of the churches past now do you? It’s like a bad dream the church is trying to hide or erase if possible. When blind people who are overzealous for the pagan sun god Jesus get the idea to start murdering people or torturing people until conversion is too much. I refuse to be part of a religion that won’t even admit that their churches aren’t perfect or could even be entirely wrong in their theology by calling anything that resembles Judaism stupid like in the book of Galatians.
For that matter if the christian church is suppose to be so persecuted in the end times then why is it the biggest religion in the world? If it was so truthful that the world would hate it then shouldn’t your numbers be relatively small compared to other “false” religions? Judaism holds to it’s laws and is hated by many but we never ever became so big and popular that we led an onslaught against other religions like the christian church has and hopefully never will do again but I have my worries.
So why badmouth Christianity? I think I’ve made my point.
Also about the prophecies of Christ or about any trinity I would have to say that your mistaken. The so called prophecies of Christ are just false interpretations of the Tanahk. Some of them false on purpose too I believe with my entire being. Also g-d being a trinity was something that he never revealed to the Jewish people. G-d being a single entity is what the Jews have always been taught. The concept of a trinity doesn’t show up until the the adding on of the christian covenant stuff. Show me a scripture in the OLD TESTAMENT where g-d explains himself as three parts and I’ll shut up but I can assure you that it does not exist. G-d is one unless you add on a “new covenant” which changes everything Judaism was built upon.
In Judaism there is no miraculous birth lol. The Jewish messiah is a man like you or me with flaws just like anyone else. The entire old testament is based on characters with flaws who the creator uses anyway. He never once demanded perfection of anyone before he used them.
You see the Jewish people in actuality will have more than one messiah as well. A messiah to a Jew isn’t a g-d who is also part man. The Jewish messiah is a man sent by g-d to accomplish a task or to do his will. Moses for example a Jewish person could call a messiah because he was sent by G-d to help deliver the Jewish people from the Egyptians. Joshua who was the greatest general in the history of Israel was also a Jewish messiah because he led the Jewish people to victory in battle against their enemies so that they could inhabit the land they were promised.
So you see the Jewish people are looking for someone like Moses or Joshua to lead them and be their messiah chosen by g-d to victory once again. Neither Moses or Joshua were thought to be divine. They were ordinary people who g-d used to accomplish his plan for Israel. The messiah the Jewish people are looking for in the future is a flawed man just like us but is also anointed by g-d to accomplish his will despite his imperfection and falling short of the perfect character of g-d.
Christians turned the Jewish messiah into a man-god which is a pagan idea and they haven’t looked back since lol but of course the pagan new testament isn’t going to tell you anything about that either. It claims to continue Judaism but without the one thing that makes a man a Jew…The law! The law and and the specific commandments it contains are the only difference between Jew and gentile. With the law abolished their is no way to tell the difference between the two and this is exactly what Christianity is trying to accomplish. Jesus is good but the laws that even he stood for are evil and a curse. What a joke man.
Your Christ doesn’t sound like a bad guy to me but your Christians don’t even resemble who he supposedly was or what he stood for as a Jew. I thought the point of being a christian was to be Christ like? Yes? Well then why don’t you be Christ like and practice Sabbath keeping? Or maybe celebrate the Passover? No? Oh yeah I remember Paul told you not to do silly things like that right? So maybe the purpose of being a Christian is to be Paul like then? Yeah that sounds more accurate.
I believe the character of Paul to be a false teacher who blatantly contradicts the teachings of your so called Jewish messiah.
Paul even admits that he is a liar in 1 Corinthians 9:19-22!
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became As A Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Paul would pretend to be anything to convert someone which is blatantly lying and not ethical in my opinion. At least I’m telling you I’m Jewish lol. I don’t pretend to be a christian to convert you to Judaism lol. Paul is ridiculous and should not be taken seriously.
I know your not liking what I’m telling you but I’m being completely honest with you. I’m not making any of this stuff up lol. I believe what I believe for a reason you know. I didn’t make this stuff up to convert you like the apostle Paul apparently did quite often. I just hope you can find it in yourselves to at least take what I’m saying into consideration.
G-d gave you a brain so that you could use it. Don’t cast it to the side and be a blind man is all that I’m asking. Study is the enemy of religion because when you study you learn that not everything they tell you is actually true or factual. My people are destroyed for their lack of knowledge it says in the bible. This is and always has been so true or not just the Jews but of all the people in every nation.
Wish you well in your studies. Shalom.
