Comment on Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity by Wes.
Obviously this is what happens when a couple of headstrong people get into a debate lol. I think that neither of us entered the debate with any actual intention of converting to the ideas of the other so we both are probably wasting our time I suppose. Having said that I still can’t resist the opportunity to make a few more comments.
Satan has already been defeated and g-d already victorious you say? That would imply that at one time there was a struggle and that still Satan needed defeating in the first place lol. So whether you call him defeated or not is irrelevant. It still poses the problem of the creation of g-d being out of his control for a time and one of his beings not bowing to his will despite willingly knowing his power and supreme authority. If Satan was truly the most intelligent angel in heaven at one point you would think that he knows he can’t defeat or even attempt to fight g-d. Even a mere human being like me knows that effort would be useless. Humanity was given a free will and a plan of redemption. However angels given a free will with no redemption? That doesn’t sound fair. Well sorry you made a bad decision and your screwed? That doesn’t sound like the character of g-d to me. If we can mess up so bad and be forgiven I don’t see why they can’t be forgiven either.
After all Satan being a tempter can’t make mankind do something that they don’t already want to do anyway. Satan doesn’t murder anyone. The person whom was tempted makes the decision to carry out that crime. Simple as that. I could tell you to go and murder the king of england because he’s a horrible person who eats babies but that still doesn’t mean you have to go out and do it lol. Besides I already quoted scripture of g-d telling us that he creates both good and evil for his purposes. The majority of christians say god is all loving and is not responsible for the creation of any evil despite the creator saying he was partly responsible himself but only to teach mankind and not to lead them astray. Satan gets a bad wrap for doing the will of g-d despite Isaiah 45:5-7 saying otherwise. It’s all man made teaching if you ask me in my opinion.
I still hold to the fact that if a created being (an angel for example) who willing does his own will despite having all the knowledge of g-d is not only one incredibly stupid angel but violates monotheism since apparently satan has his own will, his own plan (whether it works or not), and his own followers in this world. Not to mention again all the pagan stories of a good g-d versus a bad g-d like Zeus/Hades fighting one another despite the good g-d being victorious in the end.
A christian friend of mine who knows my position runs into questions all the time about why was satan created? Why didn’t g-d see the rebellion of satan coming in the first place? Why didn’t g-d destroy satan outright instead of letting him continue in his ways? Some of those questions for him have been hard to answer to non believers. My response is that satan is not a rebellious angel but does the will of g-d. There is no disorder in the kingdom of g-d. Satan does as he is told by g-d who creates good and evil as stated in the tanahk.
You see I don’t hate the gentiles. It’s actually the exact opposite. I feel sorry for the gentiles and show a special kindness to them because in all honesty they just haven’t been taught the ways of the torah. How can I or anyone else call a man good or evil when he hasn’t been given the true knowledge on how to be good in the first place (torah)? The purpose of the jewish people is to be a teacher and example to the pagan nations of the one true g-d of Israel. We aren’t here to be arrogant or brag about our knowledge of g-d. We are here to show kindness to the nations and to teach them as opposed to condemning them.
This good against evil or satan versus g-d/jesus thing is all a scam that creates hatred and even fear to control the people. Throughout history this satan character as well as hellfire has been used to literally scare people to death in order to get them to bow to a pope, king, or so on. When you come out of the deception and rise above it is when g-d can really use you for good. The torah/the tanakh is here to show us the right way to live and I believe puts the evil satan being in rebellion to god story to rest. G-d creates good and evil to accomplish his plan for man. He doesn’t make mistakes like not seeing in advance a rebellion of satan or creating a place of torment for those that don’t believe in him. Death has always been the only penalty of the enemies of g-d. An infinite punishment is not a fair penalty for a finite crime like some churches hold to absolutely terrify their people to put butts in the seats on sundays.
There are bad apples in any religion (judaism included) but if you know the torah and apply it to your life you can’t go wrong. All modern religious wars have been fought because they violated the torah and disregarded it’s commands for their own goals/dreams. Hitler being one of those people not very long ago actually.
The Torah is life, goodness, righteousness, perfection, and even the character of the creator himself. Thats why I get so agitated when someone says it either does not apply, has been fulfilled, or is flat out stupid like the book of galatians has called it. The torah is the only difference between jew and gentile. The only difference between the people of g-d and those who don’t know the creator. I refuse to bow to lawlessness and anyone who speaks against the torah I am always going to be very skeptical of and for good reason.
Jesus did not come so that we could forget the torah. He didn’t come to abolish it in his very own words! However the followers of this man do the exact opposite as he did. They put grace before the law and when they do that bad things happen. History has proven that again and again. I wouldn’t have a problem believing if everything added up but in my eyes the evidence against christianity heavily outweighs evidence for it. It’s not that jews are ignorant of your religion. It’s just that aspects of your religion either violate, add to, or take away from ours.
As for this antichrist character you speak of I don’t believe in him at all. However I do know the torah and if this person violated it do you think that I would not be the first person to stand up against him? Maybe the jewish people aren’t as gullible or lost as the world thinks because I am not willing to trade the torah for world peace. Without the torah there can be no world peace! This antichrist character seems like he would be easily recognized anyway so I’m not very worried.
I believe that g-d is one.
I believe that the jewish people are the people of g-d.
I believe the sabbath day to be the only biblical day of worship.
I believe the law is eternal (not abolished, fulfilled, or stupid).
These things are the only things that make us different from pagans/gentiles and once we brush them aside we are no different than any other people on earth. The tanakh is full of stories about the people of Israel messing up and mixing the law of g-d in with the worship of other deities. Christianity to me is the worship of another deity and I will not make the mistakes of those in the past.
Why is Jesus a solar deity (the sun)?
-He has 12 disciples (the 12 signs of the zodiac).
-His followers worship on the day of the sun.
-His birthdate is widely known as Dec. 25th which is the birth of the sun and many different other saviors throughout history.
-He was supposedly resurrected on easter which again is pagan.
-He fights against an evil deity just like other pagan god men did.
-He rose again like the sun and other pagan deities.
-His symbol is a cross which is the division of the four seasons in which the sun travels through the zodiac every single year.
-His mother mary is called the mother of g-d despite the fact that g-d cannot be born because he has always existed.
It’s important to understand that in the pagan religions their deities were thought to be real people when in actuality they never existed. They were just the worship of stars, the sun, and so on as allegories. Thats exactly what the gospel is. It’s an allegory.
There is more I could mention but those are some of the basics. I know I know you don’t believe in all of those things but my point is that most of the christian world does. Why are you not fighting against other christian denominations against these things if you don’t believe them? Why convert to your own religion when the christian world in general seems like it can’t agree and itself needs fixing?
I wish you luck in your studies but nobody has ever proven to me without a doubt that my religion is false. You even agree it isn’t false as a christian but say it was fulfilled and became something new which i absolutely refuse to believe because of facts I stated. I just want you to keep an open mind and not to believe in something because it’s the popular thing. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world after all.
Shalom!
Wes Also Commented
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
No comments about the crimes of the churches past? That’s typical. I fail to understand why Christians when they convert someone don’t give them the honest truth about their faith. Why not tell them the good deeds the Christians have done AND the bad things? Don’t you owe these people complete honesty when you try and convert them? Are you not willing to give them the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Until I see a christian missionary convincing someone to weigh both the good and the bad when they convert someone I am going to assume they are either ignorant of church history or are blatantly bias people who will do anything like St. Paul to convert unbelievers. At least the Jewish religion doesn’t hide anything about what we believe, where we come from, or the things we have been through in the past. Maybe that’s why our religion is much smaller than Christianity. We don’t lie or tickle human ears with religious prosperity gospels to make money.
Lets not forget why I got on this page in the first place. It was the christian attack of the coming Jewish messiah. You have already judged someone you haven’t even met yet. You don’t even understand who the true Jewish messiah was suppose to be in Jewish prophecy because the christian churches have reinterpreted what the definition of a messiah is suppose to be. You have made the christian messiah a demigod when in actuality he is just a regular man anointed by g-d to accomplish a task like Moses or Joshua.
In christian prophecy the anti messiah is actually a supernatural being with seemingly unlimited power and sometimes even satan in human form himself who claims to be g-d in the flesh.
This theology breaks Jewish law because the Jews believe their messiah to be just a regular guy. Not only that but any man or messiah who claims to be g-d himself is committing a terrible sin and the Jewish people would not follow him because he breaks Jewish law. So in actuality the Jewish messiah is nothing like the christian anti-messiah because he isn’t supernatural and he doesn’t claim to be g-d.
So in reality this entire debate was caused by Christian bias for their own religion who once again condemn another religion without properly understanding it beforehand. Now I’m taking things out of context and this is an attack on Christianity? Whatever…lol.
Funny how Christians when they lash out against other religions cry persecution when others simply defend themselves or show any opposition to the beliefs of your churches. I am defending the Jewish position as opposed to attacking the christian position. That’s that.
I’m still waiting for that old testament passage where G-d tells Israel that he is a trinity as well. Nobody has been able to supply that yet. I don’t view the new testament as scripture so you have to prove to me through the Tanakh that g-d is a trinity and I’m telling you that nowhere is there a passage that teaches the jews about g-d being anything more than a single entity. Only in sun worshiping religions is there a trinity.
That’s why Christ wears a crown of thorns or a corona. It’s a symbol of the rays of the sun around his head much like the halo he is wearing in much christian/catholic artwork.
That’s why Christians wear crosses. The cross is a sun symbol that divides the four seasons of the year. That’s also why there are only 4 gospels because the journey of the sun goes through twelve months or 4 seasons of the year before he dies and is reborn.
The rest of the new testament was voted on and added in by a group of men as “inspired scripture” as well at the council of nicea in 325 ad. Not all of these guys were “Christians” either. Different people from all different religions were present because the purpose of Christianity at that time was to unite the roman empire. That’s a lot of the reason the new testament is anti Jewish. You couldn’t unite the roman empire under Sabbath keeping, the Passover, and etc because the pagan believers hated those Jewish celebrations. Sunday fit in quite well though because the gentile religions of that time already worshiped the sun anyway.
The history of the new testament isn’t as inspired as you think lol.
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
One more thing….Paul speaking of course….
2 Corinthians 12:16 says….
“Let it be granted then that I was not a burden to you; but, crafty fellow that I am, I took you with trickery!”
Now he’s bragging about being a liar…lol.
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
Ok I haven’t been on this page in a while but I feel like I’ve cooled down a little and am ready to discuss a few comments here.
The first thing I want to comment on is the reply right above me. Why mock Christianity so badly? Why take the time to do so if it’s not truthful? The simple answer to that question is the fact that for Christianity or any other religion for that matter to prevail would mean the death of all other religions. Judaism is not excluded from that. Now for Judaism to emerge victorious yes Christianity would have to be proven false.
The difference between Judaism/Christianity is that the Jewish people are currently waiting for g-d to send them the messiah that will free them from the pagan nations of this world. G-d is doing the work here. The Jewish people don’t have a command to convert the entire world. The Jewish people are just suppose to remain a holy set apart people until they are free of their enemies. We don’t push people to become jews. We sure don’t force them either. We just practice our Torah laws and wait patiently for our messiah to arrive.
Christianity on the other hand hasn’t been as patient as the Jewish people. Christianity unlike Judaism has a command by their pagan messiah to convert the entire world. The church in the middle ages took that to the level of any means necessary. Jewish people who refused to convert or be baptized would even be tortured or murdered. Witches and people who practice magic (which is forbidden by the torah) would be burned alive which is not something any christian in the new testament was ever commanded to do. Christians of the passed who also claimed to be spirit filled committed those terrible crimes against humanity. Even Adolf Hitler was a christian and a very antisemitic one at that. The sad thing is that even The Holocaust itself was nothing compared to how many people lost their lives over the entire middle ages period of time by the hand of christian believers.
So you see I am very fearful that these things might happen again. Christianity today isn’t nearly as bad as it was but you never hear anyone who tried to convert someone to Christianity mention the mass murder or the crimes of the churches past now do you? It’s like a bad dream the church is trying to hide or erase if possible. When blind people who are overzealous for the pagan sun god Jesus get the idea to start murdering people or torturing people until conversion is too much. I refuse to be part of a religion that won’t even admit that their churches aren’t perfect or could even be entirely wrong in their theology by calling anything that resembles Judaism stupid like in the book of Galatians.
For that matter if the christian church is suppose to be so persecuted in the end times then why is it the biggest religion in the world? If it was so truthful that the world would hate it then shouldn’t your numbers be relatively small compared to other “false” religions? Judaism holds to it’s laws and is hated by many but we never ever became so big and popular that we led an onslaught against other religions like the christian church has and hopefully never will do again but I have my worries.
So why badmouth Christianity? I think I’ve made my point.
Also about the prophecies of Christ or about any trinity I would have to say that your mistaken. The so called prophecies of Christ are just false interpretations of the Tanahk. Some of them false on purpose too I believe with my entire being. Also g-d being a trinity was something that he never revealed to the Jewish people. G-d being a single entity is what the Jews have always been taught. The concept of a trinity doesn’t show up until the the adding on of the christian covenant stuff. Show me a scripture in the OLD TESTAMENT where g-d explains himself as three parts and I’ll shut up but I can assure you that it does not exist. G-d is one unless you add on a “new covenant” which changes everything Judaism was built upon.
In Judaism there is no miraculous birth lol. The Jewish messiah is a man like you or me with flaws just like anyone else. The entire old testament is based on characters with flaws who the creator uses anyway. He never once demanded perfection of anyone before he used them.
You see the Jewish people in actuality will have more than one messiah as well. A messiah to a Jew isn’t a g-d who is also part man. The Jewish messiah is a man sent by g-d to accomplish a task or to do his will. Moses for example a Jewish person could call a messiah because he was sent by G-d to help deliver the Jewish people from the Egyptians. Joshua who was the greatest general in the history of Israel was also a Jewish messiah because he led the Jewish people to victory in battle against their enemies so that they could inhabit the land they were promised.
So you see the Jewish people are looking for someone like Moses or Joshua to lead them and be their messiah chosen by g-d to victory once again. Neither Moses or Joshua were thought to be divine. They were ordinary people who g-d used to accomplish his plan for Israel. The messiah the Jewish people are looking for in the future is a flawed man just like us but is also anointed by g-d to accomplish his will despite his imperfection and falling short of the perfect character of g-d.
Christians turned the Jewish messiah into a man-god which is a pagan idea and they haven’t looked back since lol but of course the pagan new testament isn’t going to tell you anything about that either. It claims to continue Judaism but without the one thing that makes a man a Jew…The law! The law and and the specific commandments it contains are the only difference between Jew and gentile. With the law abolished their is no way to tell the difference between the two and this is exactly what Christianity is trying to accomplish. Jesus is good but the laws that even he stood for are evil and a curse. What a joke man.
Your Christ doesn’t sound like a bad guy to me but your Christians don’t even resemble who he supposedly was or what he stood for as a Jew. I thought the point of being a christian was to be Christ like? Yes? Well then why don’t you be Christ like and practice Sabbath keeping? Or maybe celebrate the Passover? No? Oh yeah I remember Paul told you not to do silly things like that right? So maybe the purpose of being a Christian is to be Paul like then? Yeah that sounds more accurate.
I believe the character of Paul to be a false teacher who blatantly contradicts the teachings of your so called Jewish messiah.
Paul even admits that he is a liar in 1 Corinthians 9:19-22!
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became As A Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Paul would pretend to be anything to convert someone which is blatantly lying and not ethical in my opinion. At least I’m telling you I’m Jewish lol. I don’t pretend to be a christian to convert you to Judaism lol. Paul is ridiculous and should not be taken seriously.
I know your not liking what I’m telling you but I’m being completely honest with you. I’m not making any of this stuff up lol. I believe what I believe for a reason you know. I didn’t make this stuff up to convert you like the apostle Paul apparently did quite often. I just hope you can find it in yourselves to at least take what I’m saying into consideration.
G-d gave you a brain so that you could use it. Don’t cast it to the side and be a blind man is all that I’m asking. Study is the enemy of religion because when you study you learn that not everything they tell you is actually true or factual. My people are destroyed for their lack of knowledge it says in the bible. This is and always has been so true or not just the Jews but of all the people in every nation.
Wish you well in your studies. Shalom.
