Comment on Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity by Alex.
Wes,
I understand your frustration, and a lot of what you’re saying makes sense (especially the part about apparently God giving the Law when the Hebrew people didn’t stand a chance, even though the text explicitly says that it is within reach).
However, your post also indicates that despite everything I’ve said, you are still arguing with things that the Orthodox Church simply doesn’t teach, for example your statement above about us not being held accountable for our lawlessness.
I have spent a long time learning Jewish teaching, from the Jewish sources, reading different commentaries, listening to rabbis speak, even going to classes. Obviously I am not an Orthodox Jew, so I do not understand as well as someone who is in that type of community, but I think I have a very good foundational understanding of Judaism and how Jews understand themselves, God, and the Torah.
No one here was spitting on Judaism, which in my opinion has a long and noble tradition of serious thought and scholarship which would make the discussion here much more productive. The author of the post was simply comparing our teaching of the messiah with yours. This is not a judgemental statement, but a theological (and maybe speculative?) one.
As for your statement about ‘all of Christianity‘ being right, I think you are being a little unfair here. Suppose some random person stood up in the park and said, “Judaism teaches that UFOs came to earth and sent the Torah to Israel as a joke”, and another Jew said that that is ridiculous, would you think it fair for someone else to say, “no, either all of Judaism is correct, or none of it is”? Clearly, the UFO fanatic is not representing Judaism. So in terms of what ‘Christianity’ teaches, one must first figure out who is actually qualified and authoritative to speak on such issues. Even then, there is some wiggle room for personal opinions, as there is in the observant Jewish communities today. I’m convinced that the Orthodox Church is the Apostolic Church and is therefore the authentic representative of Jesus’ teachings.
I think that you may be right about the debate going on here. Perhaps it is unfruitful. It would probably be better to be humble and ask God to show us reality and the truth. I am not offended that you think Christianity is Pagan. That is your theological opinion. I do think however that it is possible to discuss these things in a fruitful way (though this is probably more difficult over the internet).
I am glad that you find life in the commandments. I pray that God will grant you a greater abundance of life, peace, and joy, and that God continues to draw all of us more and more into the Truth of who He really is.
Best,
Jacob
Alex Also Commented
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
Also with regards to the stoning, I could be wrong but I don’t think that the woman in question was tried according to the standards of the law. It appears to be sort of a mob action more than a carrying out of justice. It’s worth notice that according to the rabbinic teaching on the Sanhedrin, it was nearly impossible for them to put someone to death. So the stoning of the adulterous woman seems inconsistent with the rabbinic teaching on the Jewish code of Justice and the Jewish ethical requirements of a Sanhedrin (which don’t seem to even appear in the story indicated that the woman probably didn’t even get a trial… although I am not sure if women were afforded the same legal protection as men in actual practice at that time).
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
Wes nothing you’re saying is new. read this: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/PelphreyChristmasP2.php
Jewish concept of Messiah (Christ) is identical to our Christian concept of Anti-Messiah (Anti-Christ), brief comparison of Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity
You didn’t enter the debate with the idea of converting the other person to your ideas? Then why did you comment in the first place? To blow off steam? That is not consistent with Torah which teaches that speech is a very important gift which should be used wisely. If you truly want Shalom, I would advise against getting involved in debate and argument for the sake of argument.
I entered the ‘debate’ because you are tragically misinformed about what the Church actually teaches, and posting incorrect information about her, and so I set out to correct you.
You said:
“Satan has already been defeated and g-d already victorious you say? That would imply that at one time there was a struggle and that still Satan needed defeating in the first place lol. So whether you call him defeated or not is irrelevant. It still poses the problem of the creation of g-d being out of his control for a time and one of his beings not bowing to his will despite willingly knowing his power and supreme authority. If Satan was truly the most intelligent angel in heaven at one point you would think that he knows he can’t defeat or even attempt to fight g-d. Even a mere human being like me knows that effort would be useless. Humanity was given a free will and a plan of redemption. However angels given a free will with no redemption? That doesn’t sound fair. Well sorry you made a bad decision and your screwed? That doesn’t sound like the character of g-d to me. If we can mess up so bad and be forgiven I don’t see why they can’t be forgiven either.”
It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with Satan. Satan does not want to change. In fact, there is a story I once heard of a group of holy men praying for the redemption of Satan. Satan appeared to them, and said, “It’s not me that needs to change, it’s God”. How often our response is similar! There has not ever been nor shall there ever be a time when God is not ‘in control’. However, how often do we fall short and make mistakes despite knowing God’s supreme authority and power? You say that you know such an effort would be useless, but are you perfect? No. In fact, the scriptures are replete with human beings who know the power of God and yet the knowledge of that power only hardens their heart further (for example, Pharaoh in the book of Exodus).
In any case, the Church’s understanding of such things is based on her experience in real life, which validates our interpretation and which is also more consistent with the ancient Jewish view and experience of the demonic. I took an entire college course on Judaism at the time of Jesus and Hillel and I can tell you that the Judaism of the time was replete with stories of angels rebelling against God, exorcisms (which still occur in Judaism today), etc.
You said:
“I still hold to the fact that if a created being (an angel for example) who willing does his own will despite having all the knowledge of g-d is not only one incredibly stupid angel but violates monotheism since apparently satan has his own will, his own plan (whether it works or not), and his own followers in this world. Not to mention again all the pagan stories of a good g-d versus a bad g-d like Zeus/Hades fighting one another despite the good g-d being victorious in the end.”
Except no where in the teachings of the Church is Satan ever described as a god, other than in the sense that perhaps he is worshiped by some as a false god (occult). Satan is a creature, no more, and this has always been the teaching. Being smart doesn’t mean that you obey God. One can be a very simple minded person and yet know God more fully than a rocket scientist.
“The Torah is life, goodness, righteousness, perfection, and even the character of the creator himself. Thats why I get so agitated when someone says it either does not apply, has been fulfilled, or is flat out stupid like the book of galatians has called it. The torah is the only difference between jew and gentile. The only difference between the people of g-d and those who don’t know the creator. I refuse to bow to lawlessness and anyone who speaks against the torah I am always going to be very skeptical of and for good reason.”
Galatians does not call the Torah stupid. Yes, I think your skepticism is there for a good reason. But I think that the attitude towards the torah that you are describing is not coming from the Orthodox Church.
You said:
“Why is Jesus a solar deity (the sun)?
-He has 12 disciples (the 12 signs of the zodiac).
-His followers worship on the day of the sun.
-His birthdate is widely known as Dec. 25th which is the birth of the sun and many different other saviors throughout history.
-He was supposedly resurrected on easter which again is pagan.
-He fights against an evil deity just like other pagan god men did.
-He rose again like the sun and other pagan deities.
-His symbol is a cross which is the division of the four seasons in which the sun travels through the zodiac every single year.
-His mother mary is called the mother of g-d despite the fact that g-d cannot be born because he has always existed.”
First of all, the fact that there are some similar themes between these stories in no way invalidates the story of the Gospel. It is a distraction from the only relevant question which is, who is Jesus Christ really (not just who do you or I say He is)?
Also, I would add that you are being hypocritical in that there are many ancient pagan religions that show considerable similarities IN SOME OF THEIR STORIES to the stories in the torah. For example, there are many ancient stories, particularly from the middle east, which describe a flood covering the earth. Another example would be the connectedness of the babylonian story of Ishtar an Marduk with the story of Esther and Mordecai. You are quick to jump to conclusions about the Church but when it comes to your own religion you apply a double standard.
1) The fact you connect the number 12 with paganism is troubling, considering that it is such a recurrent symbolic number in the Torah (12 sons of Jacob and thus 12 tribes of Israel). It is for the former reason that Jesus chose 12 disciples, thus representing the totality of Israel. Again though, all you have shown is that to multiple nations, including the Hebrew nation of Israel, the number 12 is important.
2) We worship on the eighth day, the day of the new creation, which is a very, very Jewish concept, present in non-Christian rabbinic literature.
3) The reason we celebrate the Nativity of Jesus on the 25th of December is not because we think that’s His birthday.
4) Historically the name of the feast commemorating Christ’s resurrection is not Easter, which is a name derived from a pagan festival, but Passover. This is still the name of the feast in all the Orthodox Churches around the world.
5) There is no evil deity in Christian teaching, there is only one God.
6) He rose again therefore He is pagan? Give me a break here. Yes, the Sun rises. It also gives light. Therefore, of course it is symbolically representative of resurrection. But by your logic, all resurrection is therefore pagan.
7) One of the symbols used by Christians is a cross, yes. That is because Jesus died on a cross… Other religions use the star as a symbol, does that imply therefore that Judaism is pagan because the star of David is a prominent symbol?
8) Jesus was fully human and fully divine. Mary gave birth to a man who is God by nature, being Himself the very Word of God who was with God from before creation. Therefore yes, she is the Mother of God.
In Judaism I think the same thing happens today. You believe that the Torah is uncreated. Some teachings, for example, hold that even the letters themselves are mystically a part of the nature of God (or at least revelatory of God and serve to unite us to Him… I’m probably not wording it exactly correct but I think you get the gist). So if the Torah is uncreated (and therefore God by nature), and someone writes down the Torah, well, they essentially are writing down something which is God by nature, being ‘writers of God’. Perhaps no one says this, but I think that the logic is still there.
Finally, I would say that your conclusion of Jesus being a ‘solar deity’, basically a regurgitation of previous Sun gods, etc., is based more on your predisposition than the facts. The facts you’ve given only demonstrate that there happen to be some similarities in the stories. Supposed that this actually is true, it is just as likely that God was using the myths or religions of these pagan peoples to prepare them for the Truth of the Gospel. None of the above mentioned themes has anything to do with whether what was claimed in the Gospel accounts actually happened or whether Jesus is truly Risen from the dead and is the Son of God.
Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
